Gorillas at Shockers: Postgame Discussion

[shockmonster]

Actually, I don't consider Cold to be a troll. I consider him to be a passionate educator who doesn't have a filter and goes too far at times. In many ways, his basic argument is correct but his passion dominates his posts. I like his posts on other forums which educate and correct other fans but I cringe when he takes it too far. Scoring (debate) points against (sometimes) helpless Valley fans doesn't appeal to me.

There is a saying that fits here. I'm not sure if he's a troll but if he is a troll, he's our Troll.

[C0|dB|00ded]

I agree AE was solid on defense, but if you think EO brings more on offense then AE could dream off, then set that alarm and wake up. As a senior AE almost perfected that 15-foot wing shoot that enabled him to shoot about 50% from the field that year. EO has to be 4-feet from the target to even have a chance at a basket. And when he gets players taller than 6-6 to guard him that down hill ceiling hook won't cut it.

Where else, other than a few feet from the basket, would you prefer a 7 foot beast to score from? And if you think a 6'6" player is going to block EO's hook straight up, it is you that needs to set the alarm. Now, could he have the ball stripped while setting up the hook? Sure. But once he makes the move, his release is quick and high enough that nobody has a chance. He is so close to the basket when he makes his move that a defender would have to jump into him and cause a foul. It will be interesting to see if EO ever has that shot blocked this year. I say no. Will he get blocked on other moves? Yes. But not the hook.

He didn't start playing basketball till late. Some players have a faster BB learning curve than others. EO just doesn't have those instincts that allow the curve to accelerate. Time has run out on his curve speed to make a big difference.

Did you think there might be a reason teammates don't feed him the ball. Through practice trust is important. My guess is that in practice trust hasn't been earned, therefore in games there are better options than throwing the ball in the post to EO.

Just because EO is in the game doesn't mean the team scraps the whole offense to feed EO a plenty. Feeding EO a plenty isn't and will never be in the game plan.

He has to just keep his hands on the steering wheel when he is in the game and let the game come to him, when appropriate, not at a pace that keeps some SN posters pacified that someday he will turn into Bill Russell.

Lots of crazy talk here.. Great players have to be constantly reminded to share the ball. Especially when you are talking about a dangerous feed into the post. MANY times our team had to refocus on getting Stutz the ball throughout his career. Towards the end of the last exhibition there was an effort to give him the ball more. Most likely that direction came from coach.

And as far as what he does in practice, HCGM has said that EO can "take over" a practice.

Scraps the whole offense? EVERY offense that has a 7 foot center should be looking to get him touches often if only to move the defenders down. If EO only played defense and received passes on the block in order to kick the ball out to open shooters we would be a better team. If you add in EO scoring when he has an obvious size advantage then we are golden. To say that he shouldn't be receiving lots of passes ---especially in the exhibitions--- is to show your true colors as an EO hater. You should be ashamed.


T


...:cool:

[C0|dB|00ded]

I think a lot of so-called "mid-majors" don't have a mid-major mentality. A lot of teams in the A-10 don't consider themselves mid-major (actually probably all of them) and more people consider the MVC a mid-major than they do the A-10. When we were in the Metro Conference from '91-'95 it wasn't considered a mid-major conference either. It's really just a matter of perspective. To most people, non-BCS is mid-major with the exception of Gonzaga and Xavier who have elevated themselves above their stations with BCS level success over a long period of time.

I would agree that Wichita State is a non-BCS program that doesn't have a mid-major mentality in how it spends and supports its program, but the lack of consistent major success would make most outside Wichita pause before calling it a major program. I think Marshall is changing that in short order and I could see the Shockers elevating into that category of program that transcends its 'mid-major' conference label in more than just the resources at its disposal. It is a sleeping giant that is clearly being awoken under Gregg Marshall and sustained and consistent national success will certainly change the prevailing perception about Wichita State as a mid-major in short order.

This kid just doesn't get it. And he continues to try and sell us on how our program is mid-major and if we "win a lot" we can shed the label that he has claimed we have.

The difference between major programs and mid-major programs is how much they spend and their quality of facilities. Period. 50% of the BCS programs out there do not make the NCAA tournament often or have lots of success. But they still spend tons of money and have athletic, "BCS'esque type" players. I would say that year in and year out we could compete and hope to win most matchups with most mid-level BCS teams. We are a big fish in a medium sized pond (Wichita market). VCU is a tiny fish in a very large pond (east coast). We've been filling up our arena for 60+ years. Hell, we were packing 11,000 in the place back in the early 80's. Just a few years ago VCU only had 1,000 season ticket holders. Season tickets at Koch Arena on the front row cost $24,000 a year for the pair and every seat in our arena is sold out to season ticket holders save for a few that are scattered amongst the top rows.

VCU has developed a name as a premiere Cinderella over the last couple years, but I don't expect that to last 3 days after Khan leaves. VCU is a small program that has won big over the last couple years. Expecting that to continue is a risky bet. Their program is tiny, their fan support is tiny, and come to think of it, I have no idea how they were even able to bump their coach's salary to over a million dollars. It must have been a large donation or God forbid, was taken out of the university's general fund.

And one more thing.. if you think the A10 is a major conference, you need to get a grip. There are only a couple programs in your conference that could qualify as a major program.

DistrictBaller, thanks for stopping by.


T


...:cool:

[DistrictBaller]

There is a saying that fits here. I'm not sure if he's a troll but if he is a troll, he's our Troll.

Oh I hear you on that. We've got those types on our board too. Every fan base needs them or you're doing it wrong.

[SHOXAAC]

Where else, other than a few feet from the basket, would you prefer a 7 foot beast to score from? And if you think a 6'6" player is going to block EO's hook straight up, it is you that needs to set the alarm. Now, could he have the ball stripped while setting up the hook? Sure. But once he makes the move, his release is quick and high enough that nobody has a chance. He is so close to the basket when he makes his move that a defender would have to jump into him and cause a foul. It will be interesting to see if EO ever has that shot blocked this year. I say no. Will he get blocked on other moves? Yes. But not the hook.



Lots of crazy talk here.. Great players have to be constantly reminded to share the ball. Especially when you are talking about a dangerous feed into the post. MANY times our team had to refocus on getting Stutz the ball throughout his career. Towards the end of the last exhibition there was an effort to give him the ball more. Most likely that direction came from coach.

And as far as what he does in practice, HCGM has said that EO can "take over" a practice.

Scraps the whole offense? EVERY offense that has a 7 foot center should be looking to get him touches often if only to move the defenders down. If EO only played defense and received passes on the block in order to kick the ball out to open shooters we would be a better team. If you add in EO scoring when he has an obvious size advantage then we are golden. To say that he shouldn't be receiving lots of passes ---especially in the exhibitions--- is to show your true colors as an EO hater. You should be ashamed.


T


...:cool:

Get a grip Cold...In today's landscape of college basketball 7-foot beasts score from a lot of places besides "a few feet" from the basket. EO is one dimensional in that regard, and with his inconsistency in catching the ball, that dimension is sketchy at best. He scored 7 points against the 4th best team in a D-2 conference in 23 minutes of play.

You misinterpreted my take on EO going against 6-6 players. His 2 hook shot baskets from 4 feet away came against 6-6 competition on the D-2 level. That aint gonna happen in the real world. No, there is no player going to block his shot...but he doesn't need to because the chance of it going in is suspect at best.

How many practices does EO "take over?" One in six, eight, ten? Focus on the word "practice." Hell I hit it like a tour pro on the range, but put me between the tee markers and I turn into bogey Benny. I'll get back to you when I sign for several 68's in a row.

EO is a below average passer for a big man (go back to your outstanding point of him not starting bball until late). It isn't going to improve at this point. Stutz was a great passer for a 7-footer and there was pockets of time where we didn't provide him touches.

Here is your quote..."To say that he shouldn't be receiving lots of passes--especially in the exhibitions--is to show your true colors as an EO hater. You should be ashamed" It appears you just called most of EO's teammates "haters." You should be ashamed.

Look, I'm not an EO hater...quite the contrary. I love the kid. I just see him for what he is...unlike you, who wants so bad to see him as a player he just isn't cut out to be.

...ding - ding - ding (there goes your alarm clock).

[Dave Stalwart]

You've gotta love a guy from another school on our board calling one of our guys a troll.

[CBB_Fan]

This kid just doesn't get it. And he continues to try and sell us on how our program is mid-major and if we "win a lot" we can shed the label that he has claimed we have.

The difference between major programs and mid-major programs is how much they spend and their quality of facilities. Period. 50% of the BCS programs out there do not make the NCAA tournament often or have lots of success. But they still spend tons of money and have athletic, "BCS'esque type" players. I would say that year in and year out we could compete and hope to win most matchups with most mid-level BCS teams. We are a big fish in a medium sized pond (Wichita market). VCU is a tiny fish in a very large pond (east coast). We've been filling up our arena for 60+ years. Hell, we were packing 11,000 in the place back in the early 80's. Just a few years ago VCU only had 1,000 season ticket holders. Season tickets at Koch Arena on the front row cost $24,000 a year for the pair and every seat in our arena is sold out to season ticket holders save for a few that are scattered amongst the top rows.

VCU has developed a name as a premiere Cinderella over the last couple years, but I don't expect that to last 3 days after Khan leaves. VCU is a small program that has won big over the last couple years. Expecting that to continue is a risky bet. Their program is tiny, their fan support is tiny, and come to think of it, I have no idea how they were even able to bump their coach's salary to over a million dollars. It must have been a large donation or God forbid, was taken out of the university's general fund.

And one more thing.. if you think the A10 is a major conference, you need to get a grip. There are only a couple programs in your conference that could qualify as a major program.

DistrictBaller, thanks for stopping by.


T


...:cool:

Not to support DistrictBaller, but VCU has twice the student body of Wichita State. That is where the support comes from. Also, their endowment is $349 million to our $193 million and growing at 24.6% to our 9.1%. They spend $21 million on athletics and $3.2 million on men's basketball to our $18 million on athletics and $3.8 million on basketball. Sure, we have more support, but we are a smaller school in a worse conference that has half the endowment and spends less money total on athletics (and little more on men's basketball).

We should definitely be looking to be a major team, not a midmajor, but VCU isn't exactly a program or school we can feel superior to. Of course, if the Koch bros ever decide to give 1% of their wealth to Wichita State, that'll be a completely different story (that would be double VCU's current endowment).

[C0|dB|00ded]

Get a grip Cold...In today's landscape of college basketball 7-foot beasts score from a lot of places besides "a few feet" from the basket. EO is one dimensional in that regard, and with his inconsistency in catching the ball, that dimension is sketchy at best. He scored 7 points against the 4th best team in a D-2 conference in 23 minutes of play.

You get a grip! If EO was a multi-dimensional 7 foot center who could score from all over the place he would be a first round draft pick. If he got the ball more, he would have scored more against the 4th best team in a D-2 conference.

You misinterpreted my take on EO going against 6-6 players. His 2 hook shot baskets from 4 feet away came against 6-6 competition on the D-2 level. That aint gonna happen in the real world. No, there is no player going to block his shot...but he doesn't need to because the chance of it going in is suspect at best.

Who has been defending him in practice the last two years? Let me give you a hint, they weren't 6'6" D2 players.

How many practices does EO "take over?" One in six, eight, ten? Focus on the word "practice." Hell I hit it like a tour pro on the range, but put me between the tee markers and I turn into bogey Benny. I'll get back to you when I sign for several 68's in a row.

Our head coach said he is much improved and can at times take over their team practices. Take it for what it's worth.

EO is a below average passer for a big man (go back to your outstanding point of him not starting bball until late). It isn't going to improve at this point. Stutz was a great passer for a 7-footer and there was pockets of time where we didn't provide him touches.

I saw EO thread the needle from the point in our last exhibition hitting a guard with a fastball for an easy layup. I also didn't see EO throw one ball away in our last game. How did you form your opinion that he is a "below average passer"? How many summer scrimmages did you attend? The only way EO can get good at kicking the ball out and finding the open man is to GET the ball on the post in game situations.

Here is your quote..."To say that he shouldn't be receiving lots of passes--especially in the exhibitions--is to show your true colors as an EO hater. You should be ashamed" It appears you just called most of EO's teammates "haters." You should be ashamed.

The exact same thing occurred with Stutz. Many times ShockerNetters questioned if there were chemistry problems because players simply wouldn't get him the ball. Eventually the coach publicly stated that he is going to get Stutz more touches. The rest is history...

Look, I'm not an EO hater...

Of course you are. This is what you just said:

No, there is no player going to block his shot...but he doesn't need to because the chance of it going in is suspect at best.

EO shot 43% from the field in his first "real" game were he played significant minutes (23).

You are either a hater or you are ignorant. Regardless, I plan on feeding you a fat-ass piece of under-cooked crow genitalia. Ding Ding DONG!


T


...:cool:

[C0|dB|00ded]

Not to support DistrictBaller, but VCU has twice the student body of Wichita State. That is where the support comes from. Also, their endowment is $349 million to our $193 million and growing at 24.6% to our 9.1%. They spend $21 million on athletics and $3.2 million on men's basketball to our $18 million on athletics and $3.8 million on basketball. Sure, we have more support, but we are a smaller school in a worse conference that has half the endowment and spends less money total on athletics (and little more on men's basketball).

We should definitely be looking to be a major team, not a midmajor, but VCU isn't exactly a program or school we can feel superior to. Of course, if the Koch bros ever decide to give 1% of their wealth to Wichita State, that'll be a completely different story (that would be double VCU's current endowment).

Student body means nothing. There are plenty of low-major programs with 30k students. How on earth do they spend over 3mm a year on basketball? They play in a juco gymnasium. Do they charter flights to road games?


T


...:cool:

[CBB_Fan]

Student body means nothing. There are plenty of low-major programs with 30k students. How on earth do they spend over 3mm a year on basketball? They play in a juco gymnasium. Do they charter flights to road games?


...:cool:

I have no idea how they spend that much money. It is possible that the stadium costs are higher because of the location and cost of land and such. They do pay Shaka Smart a million dollar salary I believe, and the coaching assistants probably receive good money. Still, the money gets spent, and that is what matters.

[C0|dB|00ded]

You've gotta love a guy from another school on our board calling one of our guys a troll.

He's only here to make himself feel better about his program. The two wins they've had over us by a point or two has literally changed the public image of their program. Had we not lost by 1pt two years ago to them they wouldn't have a Final Four banner. VCU fans love Wichita State for obvious reasons...


T


...:cool:

[C0|dB|00ded]

I have no idea how they spend that much money. It is possible that the stadium costs are higher because of the location and cost of land and such. They do pay Shaka Smart a million dollar salary I believe, and the coaching assistants probably receive good money. Still, the money gets spent, and that is what matters.

That's true. You have truly educated me on the issue.


T


...:cool:

[SHOXAAC]

You get a grip! If EO was a multi-dimensional 7 foot center who could score from all over the place he would be a first round draft pick. If he got the ball more, he would have scored more against the 4th best team in a D-2 conference.



Who has been defending him in practice the last two years? Let me give you a hint, they weren't 6'6" D2 players.



Our head coach said he is much improved and can at times take over their team practices. Take it for what it's worth.



I saw EO thread the needle from the point in our last exhibition hitting a guard with a fastball for an easy layup. I also didn't see EO throw one ball away in our last game. How did you form your opinion that he is a "below average passer"? How many summer scrimmages did you attend? The only way EO can get good at kicking the ball out and finding the open man is to GET the ball on the post in game situations.



The exact same thing occurred with Stutz. Many times ShockerNetters questioned if there were chemistry problems because players simply wouldn't get him the ball. Eventually the coach publicly stated that he is going to get Stutz more touches. The rest is history...



Of course you are. This is what you just said:



EO shot 43% from the field in his first "real" game were he played significant minutes (23).

You are either a hater or you are ignorant. Regardless, I plan on feeding you a fat-ass piece of under-cooked crow genitalia. Ding Ding DONG!


T


...:cool:

You get grouchy when the alarm clock isn't set for the correct time.

Don't let logic get in the way of your next response...in 3...2...1...ding-a-ling-a-ding-dong!!!

[C0|dB|00ded]

You get grouchy when the alarm clock isn't set for the correct time.

Don't let logic get in the way of your next response...in 3...2...1...ding-a-ling-a-ding-dong!!!

You will get the balls AND the shaft at the appointed time. DING DONG!


T


...:cool:

[SHOXAAC]

You will get the balls AND the shaft at the appointed time. DING DONG!


T


...:cool:

Right on time Cold...your getting the hang of the alarm concept!!!