Just how loaded are we??!!

[SubGod22]

And not everyone he's brought in has been so talented that they were pushing those ahead of them and just weren't happy with PT. TRich is a great example. Great kid and great family, but simply didn't have the talent to compete at this level. Hamilton and KJ had the physical tools to do so, but apparently lacked on the mental side. I'd say the same thing about Anacreon. We all love athleticism, but if that's all you have, it's not going to work out here at WSU. Chamberlain had potential to be an ok role player here. But he was never going to see a lot of court time. He was essentially Sean Ogirri. Brought little to the table other than the ability to shoot from 20+ feet.

[SubGod22]

Misses in signed recruits come from various reasons than just a coach just not knowing talent. Just as some have said that Jucos fill holes, sometimes, HS players are choosen to fill out rosters with a coach hoping that potential turns to reality or that they can help them overcome HS classroom deficiencies. Players get homesick, they don't advance in playing time as fast as they think they should, regardless of the help provided, they just don't do the bookin' or just can't do it. Sometimes they just get crossways with the staff. How many left under MT (or due to MT): Sowers, Sherrell, Liberty, Walls, Green, Young, Brown, Butler, Ogirri (he was leaving even if MT stayed).

Green never left. He finished his degree at WSU. Career ending injury and was able to stay on scholarship without counting against the limit.

Liberty and Walls both had some success away from Turgeon. Walls suprised me a little bit. Liberty not so much. The system was not a good fit for him as Turgeon didn't let him use the best of his abilities. Young was kicked off the team for breaking rules. I have no idea what Butler ended up doing. Kid had great athleticism. Ogirri had his issues but was a hell of a shooter. Brown went to Central Arkansas but I'm not sure how he did down there. I don't remember what happened to the first two.

[Aargh]

Kurt Bngles was effective at D3 Mesa State.
Ryan Bradley was effective at D2 Kansas Newman

Marshall takes some risks in recruiting and tends to take more risks on very athletic and physical players. If those players work out at D1, they are "steals", if not, they are replaced by JC's, who have more body of work to evaluate.

I think Marshall needed to make some recruiting adjustments from what worked at Winthrop for MVC play. Now it looks like Marshall is challenging the rest of the Valley to make recruiting adjustments based on what he's bringing in. In a league formerly dominated by 6'4" (or shorter) perimeter players, Marshall is working hard to put 6'6" - 6'8" players on the wing. If that works, he redefines how the Valley plays ball. It might not work, but there's a risk in every decision a basketball coach makes.

If Early, Green, and Wiggins are quick enough to play D against smaller players, they are a matchup nightmare on the offensive end. If they're not that quick, then DWill will get minutes at SF and there will be a huge logjam struggling for minutes at PF and Center. Recruiting is a risk. Planning a team on paper, devising a strategy based on recruiting, and designing recruiting based on a strategy, is a risk.

Marshall looks like he's willing to take a higher level of risk than some coaches and definitely some fans. He's like a power hitter in baseball. He whiffs more than you'd like to see, but when he connects, he lights up the scoreboard. So far, he's connected enough that the scoreboard has looked pretty good. To p[ut it totally in baseball terms, I'd say Marshall is the equivalent of a guy hitting around .300 with 35 or so HR's. Borderlin all-star. Not many walks, but a distrubing number of K's because he's up there swinging.

[shock]

So why is it that everyone that questions Coach Marshall has an axe to grind? I've been accused of it and now I see that Bobb is too. Is it that difficult to believe that the entire world does not see the situation from the same point of view that you do?

Let me show you some excerpts--

What isn't harmless is the damage being done to the program with,our JUCO heavy roster. It is an embarassment that we have one player, DWill, out of the Junior and Senior classes that played here as a Freshman. 2009: Dwill, Richardson, Hamilton and Manigault. 2010: Didn't bother. Brought in Orupke (one can argue) Ragland and Smith all JUCO. 2011: White, Wessel, Cotton, Ede and Baker as Freshmen with Hall and Anacreon as JUCO. Ede is gone and some are speculating about the future of Wessel and or Baker. We find ourselves today two over the scholarship limit by most educated guesses with the assumption that we may have 1-2 freshman recruits not qualify, giving us potentially Wiggins, Lufile, Early as JUCO and Green and VanVleet as potential four year players.

My friends, this IS a recruiting and management problem. I will get on board and support the team and enjoy the talent we put out. But, next years team will likely be dominated by Dwill, JUCO's and a one year transfer player. I don't like it.

You are misreading what I am saying. I would love a team of upperclassmen starters. Upperclassmen that started their careers here as freshmen. A JUCO is an upperclassman in name only. It should be about putting the best TEAM on the court and you do that with players that have developed under the system, not an all-star line up of academic casualties and malcontent transfers.

MVC Tournament ring, NIT ring, Class ring, Little Orphan Annie decoder ring, or NCAA ring? NCAA rings don't go to JUCO laden teams. The others? Potentially.

Well, successful early teams don't count because of a different environment. Turgeon rebuilt the prgram with Jamar, Randy, Kampman, Miller, PJ, Ogirri and Brauer. Martin, Karon, Fridge and Wilson were great additions to that nucleus of stability. 3G rebuilt the program with Kyles, Murry and Stutz with Durley providing more continuity. Hannah, Smith, Blair, Hall and Ragland were additions to that nucleus.

I'm not saying that the JUCOs are bad kids, or bad players. I am saying that you don't build a successful program on the back of two year players and that I would take a fifteen win season with or young guys getting more minutes over twenty wins with a bunch of two year players.

Regarding embarassing, it is embarassing that we have but one senior or junior that,started their career at WSU. Regarding damaging, maybe "damaging if continued" is a more nuanced way to express it.

We also have ample evidence that he doesn't. Chamberlain, Manigault, Anacreon, Richardson, Hamilton, Orupke. Did he get lucky with Toure, Stutz and Ragland or unlucky with these guys? I'm not saying this recruiting class can't play. I am saying that expecting anything but a step down from a team of 3-5 new starters is folly.

Different view point, sure. But most fans enjoy success. @BOBB: just likes criticizing Marshall. @BOBB: would rather have a 15 win season his way than a 20 win season the way Marshall is. But i get it. There is room for the 15 win freshman to grow. But when you have success one way, and you have guys like Early who are NBA talent according to the professional scouts) lining up to play for you, you don't turn it down without losing your job.

Its one thing if all the transfers are TRich or Hamilton and Marshall is sticking with it, but how is Early (two and done- Projected NBA) different than Ellis (recruited by Marshall- Projected one and done) or VanVleet (projected 2 and done) besides the fact that he has two years max? If he produces, who cares how long he is here. If he doesn't, then theres the door.

As far as "using players" and tossing them aside like @hoopsnut: thinks he does, every player has a chance to work hard and succeed based on effort. If Marshall doesn't agree with said effort, they tend to transfer. 'Nuff said.

[shock]

Kurt Bngles was effective at D3 Mesa State.
Ryan Bradley was effective at D2 Kansas Newman

Marshall takes some risks in recruiting and tends to take more risks on very athletic and physical players. If those players work out at D1, they are "steals", if not, they are replaced by JC's, who have more body of work to evaluate.

I think Marshall needed to make some recruiting adjustments from what worked at Winthrop for MVC play. Now it looks like Marshall is challenging the rest of the Valley to make recruiting adjustments based on what he's bringing in. In a league formerly dominated by 6'4" (or shorter) perimeter players, Marshall is working hard to put 6'6" - 6'8" players on the wing. If that works, he redefines how the Valley plays ball. It might not work, but there's a risk in every decision a basketball coach makes.

If Early, Green, and Wiggins are quick enough to play D against smaller players, they are a matchup nightmare on the offensive end. If they're not that quick, then DWill will get minutes at SF and there will be a huge logjam struggling for minutes at PF and Center. Recruiting is a risk. Planning a team on paper, devising a strategy based on recruiting, and designing recruiting based on a strategy, is a risk.

Marshall looks like he's willing to take a higher level of risk than some coaches and definitely some fans. He's like a power hitter in baseball. He whiffs more than you'd like to see, but when he connects, he lights up the scoreboard. So far, he's connected enough that the scoreboard has looked pretty good. To p[ut it totally in baseball terms, I'd say Marshall is the equivalent of a guy hitting around .300 with 35 or so HR's. Borderlin all-star. Not many walks, but a distrubing number of K's because he's up there swinging.

I couldn't have said it any better, or even close to that good. End of Discussion.

[Mr. Obvious]

Kurt Bngles was effective at D3 Mesa State.
Ryan Bradley was effective at D2 Kansas Newman

Marshall takes some risks in recruiting and tends to take more risks on very athletic and physical players. If those players work out at D1, they are "steals", if not, they are replaced by JC's, who have more body of work to evaluate.

I think Marshall needed to make some recruiting adjustments from what worked at Winthrop for MVC play. Now it looks like Marshall is challenging the rest of the Valley to make recruiting adjustments based on what he's bringing in. In a league formerly dominated by 6'4" (or shorter) perimeter players, Marshall is working hard to put 6'6" - 6'8" players on the wing. If that works, he redefines how the Valley plays ball. It might not work, but there's a risk in every decision a basketball coach makes.

If Early, Green, and Wiggins are quick enough to play D against smaller players, they are a matchup nightmare on the offensive end. If they're not that quick, then DWill will get minutes at SF and there will be a huge logjam struggling for minutes at PF and Center. Recruiting is a risk. Planning a team on paper, devising a strategy based on recruiting, and designing recruiting based on a strategy, is a risk.

Marshall looks like he's willing to take a higher level of risk than some coaches and definitely some fans. He's like a power hitter in baseball. He whiffs more than you'd like to see, but when he connects, he lights up the scoreboard. So far, he's connected enough that the scoreboard has looked pretty good. To p[ut it totally in baseball terms, I'd say Marshall is the equivalent of a guy hitting around .300 with 35 or so HR's. Borderlin all-star. Not many walks, but a distrubing number of K's because he's up there swinging.

Very well put +1:encouragement:

[SubGod22]

Let me show you some excerpts--











Different view point, sure. But most fans enjoy success. @BOBB just likes criticizing Marshall. @BOBB would rather have a 15 win season his way than a 20 win season the way Marshall is. But i get it. There is room for the 15 win freshman to grow. But when you have success one way, and you have guys like Early who are NBA talent according to the professional scouts) lining up to play for you, you don't turn it down without losing your job.

Its one thing if all the transfers are TRich or Hamilton and Marshall is sticking with it, but how is Early (two and done- Projected NBA) different than Ellis (recruited by Marshall- Projected one and done) or VanVleet (projected 2 and done) besides the fact that he has two years max? If he produces, who cares how long he is here. If he doesn't, then theres the door.

As far as "using players" and tossing them aside like @hoopsnut thinks he does, every player has a chance to work hard and succeed based on effort. If Marshall doesn't agree with said effort, they tend to transfer. 'Nuff said.

Who the hell projects FVV as a two and done? I think there was one tweet that mentioned he might not be here four years. If that's all it takes to truely be projected to something than some of our busts were MVC all valley types.

And I think you're twisting what BOBB has been saying. He, like a number of others, are worried that we'll become too reliant on JUCO guys and that it's extremely hard to keep a program at a top level when you rely too heavily on recruiting JUCOs. I don't think he's criticized the guys we've brought in this year. Just that he hopes we don't create a trend of an overwhelming number of JUCO guys. You build programs with FR. You fill holes with JUCOs.

And as I've said before, a one and done like Ellis could do a hell of a lot more for the program than a JUCO guy who may end up in the NBA. Simply because he's already a national name and would get the school tons of publicity and show other recruits what can be done at Wichita State. Even if it took two years to jump, that kind of kid can do wonders for recruiting and opening doors that otherwise wouldn't open.

[ShockerPhi]

Wow... just casually monitoring this thread and starting to wonder why the NCAA will even have a Dance next year.
If WSU is bringing in nothing but NBA first rounders, why bother.

This made me LOL!

Seriously though, I'm excited for next years team, but let's not shoot the moon just yet.

[proshox]

Where does the idea that HCGM is over relying on JUCO's come from? We have plenty of young players in the system that will have the opportunity to be four & five year players.

This spring there were a few dynamic players on the draft board that wanted to come to WSU. HCGM sure as heck didn't need these players to have a top 3 or 4 valley team, but at the same time he isn't going to ignore the opportunity to create depth on his roster.

As far as I can tell BOBB believes what he is writing, but lacks relevant observations to back it all up. If I am wrong somebody can go back and provide the successful WSU teams that did not have significant contributions from incoming transfers that replaced players who did not make the grade.

[ShockTalk]

And as I've said before, a one and done like Ellis could do a hell of a lot more for the program than a JUCO guy who may end up in the NBA. Simply because he's already a national name and would get the school tons of publicity and show other recruits what can be done at Wichita State. Even if it took two years to jump, that kind of kid can do wonders for recruiting and opening doors that otherwise wouldn't open.

Well....DUH!! I sure HCGM will take all the Ellis's he could get. But when that doesn't happen, would you take a Juco AA or a problematic-type athletic HS'r.

Oh, wait, HCGM did better than that. He got Early/Lufile and Hawkins/Green (and I don't think DeRail is problematic). Try to solve a hole now and for later. Hopefully, he's found that freshman PG in FVV, but until he has one, he's provided us with Hannah, Ragland, and Armstead.

Fans want results. When you get paid big bucks, rebuilding may not be an option. Personally, I feel Marshall is reloading and rebuilding. Who thought Cotton would be as effective a freshman as he was? White is, and will, do very well. We'll see how Baker and Wessel turn out. This year, FVV, Green, and hopefully, at least one of Hawkins and Uwadiae. It's not like the staff's not trying to have solid freshman classes. Yes, as a coach, you'd like all of them to work out well, but some will drop off. Some years, only one make it (DWill), sometimes, 3 (Stutz, Murry, Kyles).

The better this team continues to compete, year in and year out, the better the recruiting will be, particularly with HS players. However, remember, with those better freshman, they will not all be so patient as to wait for their playing time.

[vancedave56]

Still just saying' - best players available. :)

[BOBB]

Still just saying' - best players available. :)

This is a completely valid point of view.

[another shocker]

But comparing this year's class to a team of NBA talent makes sense? These guys are much more likely to be Conns than Carrs.

Are you f*Cking serious? You don't seem to have comprehension skills. I said since then, which means after then.. from mid-80's to now. Do I really have to explain that to people like you (and, of course, ShockRef)? Are you that dense, or are you a troll? Both? You can't name a team SINCE THEN with more talent than this year's Wichita State team, coming up. Name one.. one year. Pick a year- any year (post Cliff, AC and X, like I said). Let's hear it.

[SubGod22]

Unless those players don't fit your needs.

[another shocker]

But I still do believe that this message board can rise to the comensurate level of current Wichita State men's basketball.. or is that hyperbole?

Most wins in a three year period (much more to come, says another shocker), single season win total record in'10-'11, lost the whole front line, and it was a good one, from then and was just as good again this year (see MVC champions). I don't see any of that changing either. As a matter of fact, I see it getting even better.