How about Wichita State and Creighton to the MWC.

[lostshocker]

Big 12 needs to add 4 non-football schools.

Do you really want to join that mess of a conference?

[Shock Top]

Do you really want to join that mess of a conference?

Uhmm... Yes? Easy decision. Lots of historically good basketball programs (or better then the mid-bottom Valley schools AT LEAST).

Not to mention the boost our baseball and volleyball teams would get as well.

[lostshocker]

Uhmm... Yes? Easy decision. Lots of historically good basketball programs (or better then the mid-bottom Valley schools AT LEAST).

Not to mention the boost our baseball and volleyball teams would get as well.

And when the conference dissolves in 5 years do you come crawling back to the MVC? The conference is controlled by Texas' whims. The bad far outweighs the good in joining the B12.

[Kung Wu]

And when the conference dissolves in 5 years do you come crawling back to the MVC? The conference is controlled by Texas' whims. The bad far outweighs the good in joining the B12.

So by "crawling back" to the MVC, you are admitting that the Big 12 is a better conference, right now, correct?

[ShockTalk]

I know it's only RPI, but here are the top 25 schools that don't play football based upon it. As always, based on the last 8 seasons.

Gonzaga 31 (way out west)
Xavier 41.75
Marquette 50.125 (Big East)
VCU 61.125
Creighton 66.25
Saint Mary's 74.125 (way out west)
George Mason 78.25
Wichita State 87.75
Saint Joseph's 89
Senton Hall 100.75 (Big East)
Providence 104.625 (Big East)
Hofstra 108
Oral Roberts 110.25
Belmont 112.75
George Washington 114.75
Vermont 114.875
Milwaukee 115.25
Wright State 115.375
Drexel 117.875
Bradley 118.75
College of Charleston 120.375
Pacific 121.375 (way out west)
Northeastern 125
Saint Louis 125.125
Siena 129.625

You want 10? The best I can come up with, and trying to be as realistic as possible would be Creighton, Wichita, Bradley, VCU, George Mason, Hofstra, George Washington, Milwaukee, Wright State and Drexel.

That would get you in Nebraska, Kansas, Illinois, Virginia, Wisconsin, Ohio, New York, DC and Pennsylvania.

How would you feel about that setup?

Sub, I really think you should include any school whose football team play FCS. After all, those are NOT football schools.

[lostshocker]

So by "crawling back" to the MVC, you are admitting that the Big 12 is a better conference, right now, correct?

Nope. Saying the grass isn't greener just because it is artificial.

[KC Shox]

Hasn't ORU expressed they are not interested in leaving the Summit League since they are the Top Dog in that conference and pretty much can punch their ticket to post-season tournaments in basketball and baseball every year? It makes sense.

[SubGod22]

Sub, I really think you should include any school whose football team play FCS. After all, those are NOT football schools.

I've thought about that, but doesn't that put us in the same boat we're in now? Schools that pump what little money they have into football and may want to move up and cause issues? Some already complain that the likes of SIU, MSU, UNI and ISUb have some financial issues because of football and the funds and focus directed towards that. If I get a chance today, I'll add those teams into a list as well.

This would all be easier if we had football...

[Ta town]

Hasn't ORU expressed they are not interested in leaving the Summit League since they are the Top Dog in that conference and pretty much can punch their ticket to post-season tournaments in basketball and baseball every year? It makes sense.

They start play in the southland next year

[SubGod22]

Hasn't ORU expressed they are not interested in leaving the Summit League since they are the Top Dog in that conference and pretty much can punch their ticket to post-season tournaments in basketball and baseball every year? It makes sense.

ORU announced over the summer I believe that they're leaving the Summit and taking a step down to the Southland or something.

[Kung Wu]

Nope. Saying the grass isn't greener just because it is artificial.

Sorry, I know this graph is hard to read, but it is legible.

See the thing is, I can't figure out what's artificial about 50 sweet-16 appearances by the Big 12 versus 6 by the MVC over the 25 year period from 1985 to 2010?

[Maggie]

Sorry, I know this graph is hard to read, but it is legible.

See the thing is, I can't figure out what's artificial about 50 sweet-16 appearances by the Big 12 versus 6 by the MVC over the 25 year period from 1985 to 2010?

There is no question that the Big 12 has been the stronger conference. They have more appearances in the Sweet 16 because they get more teams in and are awarded, by and large, better seeds.

What might be interesting is a comparison between Big 12 teams and MVC teams that received similar seeds.

[SubGod22]

I've added FCS, or lower, teams to the list that have an average RPI under 125. They're at the bottom. I went ahead and pasted the previous list into this post as well so they're together and you can see all of those potential options.

I know it's only RPI, but here are the top 25 schools that don't play football based upon it. As always, based on the last 8 seasons.

Gonzaga 31 (way out west)
Xavier 41.75
Marquette 50.125 (Big East)
VCU 61.125
Creighton 66.25
Saint Mary's 74.125 (way out west)
George Mason 78.25
Wichita State 87.75
Saint Joseph's 89
Senton Hall 100.75 (Big East)
Providence 104.625 (Big East)
Hofstra 108
Oral Roberts 110.25
Belmont 112.75
George Washington 114.75
Vermont 114.875
Milwaukee 115.25
Wright State 115.375
Drexel 117.875
Bradley 118.75
College of Charleston 120.375
Pacific 121.375 (way out west)
Northeastern 125
Saint Louis 125.125
Siena 129.625

You want 10? The best I can come up with, and trying to be as realistic as possible would be Creighton, Wichita, Bradley, VCU, George Mason, Hofstra, George Washington, Milwaukee, Wright State and Drexel.

That would get you in Nebraska, Kansas, Illinois, Virginia, Wisconsin, Ohio, New York, DC and Pennsylvania.

How would you feel about that setup?

The football playing schools...

Georgetown - 44.125 (Big East, no desire to play scholarship football)
Old Dominion - 63 (I believe they have plans to move up eventually)
Dayton - 72.875 (Don't really see an A10 school joining)
Butler - 76.25 (Maybe, depending on who else is in...)
S. Illinois - 83.625 (Can they recover?)
Missouri St. - 87.875 (We know of their financial issues)
Davidson - 96 (I'd be cautious of such a small college in a league like we're discussing)
Charlotte - 113.375 (I believe they have a desire to move up eventually)
Murray St. - 114.5
Rhode Island - 115.5 (A10 and CAA for football)

I'm not real sure there are many good option here unless you could convince both Dayton and Xavier to join in on this kind of move. I don't think you could have one without the other. IF you could pull that off then I say you go 12 (East/West) and you could have Creighton, Wichita, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, VCU, George Mason, Missouri State, Bradley, George Washington, Drexel and Murray State.

West - Creighton, Wichita, Missouri State, Bradley, Butler, Murray State
East - VCU, George Mason, Drexel, Xavier, Dayton, George Washington

The West would be in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and Kentucky
The East in Virginia, DC, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

East would definitely save on travel and both sides would be tough.

School ------------- Enrollment --- Endowment --- Attendance
Murray State -------- 10,623 ------- 27.9 M -------- 4,062
Butler ---------------- 4,700 -------- 155 M -------- 7,178
Bradley --------------- 6,100 ------ 198.5 M -------- 8,447 (Just wait until things turn around for them)
Missouri State ------- 20,800 ------ 59.97 M -------- 7,595 (Still can't believe that's all they get)
Wichita State ------- 15,000 ------- 170.1 M ------- 10,428
Creighton ------------ 7,700 --------- 375 M ------- 13,507 (And going up!)
VCU ---------------- 32,300 ------- 349.7 M -------- 6,645
George Mason ------- 33,300 ------- 51.6 M --------- 5,896 (I expected a little better)
Drexel -------------- 23,500 ------- 536.4 M -------- 2,040 (Really?)
Xavier --------------- 7,000 -------- 101 M -------- 10,098
Dayton ------------- 10,000 ------ 346.6 M -------- 12,567
George Washington - 24,500 ------- 1.331 B --------- 1,788 (How is that possible?)

Not sure what endowment has to do with anything, but some want to use it in these scenarios so I threw them out there. The average attendence for this made up conference is about 7,521.

I can go get numbers of any other schools you'd like to look at if need be.

[Kung Wu]

There is no question that the Big 12 has been the stronger conference. They have more appearances in the Sweet 16 because they get more teams in and are awarded, by and large, better seeds.

Right. I wanna be part of that. If we are going to jump ship to a new conference, why not one that is privileged like the Big 12, instead of another so-so one?

What might be interesting is a comparison between Big 12 teams and MVC teams that received similar seeds.

I think that's been done ad nauseum. RPI, with the unrealistic SOS weighting, is certainly biased toward those conferences with the strongest contenders (meaning the mediocre teams get an artificial boost and into the dance when more deserving teams without one of the very elite programs in their conference get the axe). That's sort of my point actually.

You want to jump ship to another conference with two (or so) anchor teams that are guaranteed games, or do you want to join a conference that's gonna have some strong mid-majors that never get to play against the anchor teams (ie, more of the same)?

[RoyalShock]

. . .

I'm not real sure there are many good option here unless you could convince both Dayton and Xavier to join in on this kind of move. I don't think you could have one without the other. IF you could pull that off then I say you go 12 (East/West) and you could have Creighton, Wichita, Dayton, Xavier, Butler, VCU, George Mason, Missouri State, Bradley, George Washington, Drexel and Murray State.

West - Creighton, Wichita, Missouri State, Bradley, Butler, Murray State
East - VCU, George Mason, Drexel, Xavier, Dayton, George Washington

The West would be in Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and Kentucky
The East in Virginia, DC, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

East would definitely save on travel and both sides would be tough.

School ------------- Enrollment --- Endowment --- Attendance
Murray State -------- 10,623 ------- 27.9 M -------- 4,062
Butler ---------------- 4,700 -------- 155 M -------- 7,178
Bradley --------------- 6,100 ------ 198.5 M -------- 8,447 (Just wait until things turn around for them)
Missouri State ------- 20,800 ------ 59.97 M -------- 7,595 (Still can't believe that's all they get)
Wichita State ------- 15,000 ------- 170.1 M ------- 10,428
Creighton ------------ 7,700 --------- 375 M ------- 13,507 (And going up!)
VCU ---------------- 32,300 ------- 349.7 M -------- 6,645
George Mason ------- 33,300 ------- 51.6 M --------- 5,896 (I expected a little better)
Drexel -------------- 23,500 ------- 536.4 M -------- 2,040 (Really?)
Xavier --------------- 7,000 -------- 101 M -------- 10,098
Dayton ------------- 10,000 ------ 346.6 M -------- 12,567
George Washington - 24,500 ------- 1.331 B --------- 1,788 (How is that possible?)

Not sure what endowment has to do with anything, but some want to use it in these scenarios so I threw them out there. The average attendence for this made up conference is about 7,521.

I can go get numbers of any other schools you'd like to look at if need be.

That looks like a nice conference setup.

I'm not sure of the geography, but if Drexel and/or GW are anywhere near the DC metro, those attendance numbers aren't surprising. There is a TON of competition for sports entertainment dollars. I'm actually surprised GMU is that high. IIRC they were barely drawing 2k-3k after their Final Four year.