If you are a fan of FHCGM.....

[mattdalt]

Do not look at Twitter for the next several days. ( A sample: Raptors single-season scoring record, most points in a game by an undrafted player, more points in a single game than ANY other shocker. G-League champion and NBA champion with a finals MVP vote.) When you see how special Fred is, you might begin to question how special FHCGM was. FHCGM was good. Fred made him great, (and a lot of money.)

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Do not look at Twitter for the next several days. ( A sample: Raptors single-season scoring record, most points in a game by an undrafted player, more points in a single game than ANY other shocker. G-League champion and NBA champion with a finals MVP vote.) When you see how special Fred is, you might begin to question how special FHCGM was. FHCGM was good. Fred made him great, (and a lot of money.)

You will find few who love Freddy more than me. Talked him up well before he got here.

But you have lost your damn mind.

FVV played roughly 15 mins a game, averaging 4 ppg and 2 rpg on the Final Four team as a Fr. On a team that lost 5 seniors (including Murry and Stutz) from a team that went 27-6 and earned a #5 seed in tournament.

fHCGM was gonna get paid, regardless of FVV. Baker, FVV, Armstead, and Early gave him a reason to make it on Wichita.

[pie n eye]

Coach Marshall would be the first guy to acknowledge that he doesn’t win as much as he has without great players. He was constantly publicly heaping praise on his guys, both for their basketball skills and attitudes.

This is like saying Phil Jackson wasn’t that great because he coached Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, and Shaq.

Fred is a great player. Marshall is a great coach. There’s no need to build one up at the expense of the other.

[Shockm]

We won a lot of NCAA and NIT games because Marshall could coach and win 1/2 court games and most NCAA games come down to winning that way. Very few great teams use pressure successfully in the NCAA Tournaments. Good teams turn pressure defense into easy baskets and free throws.

GM was not an offensive genius but his good teams (and he had a lot of winning teams with his 330 wins in Wichita) all had low offensive turnovers (Fred was extra good at limiting turnovers), and he coached the HELL out of defense, and rebounding. All of our great teams rebounded well, and most of our teams played good defense. We were spoiled.

Gregg imo often went too far with his demeanor but I think most great or good coaches have a feisty and aggressive personality. Some of you may prefer Turgeon, but I think GM and Gene Smithson’s personality fits Wichita better and will win here more.

[Aargh]

Following a F4, there's a huge ability to bump recruiting. FVV, Baker, Cotton, and Early were essential parts of that F4 run. That's 2 AA's and 3 NBA guys (two Fr and one Jr). I'd include Wessel, but didn't he forfeit his scholarship? Then an undefeated season provided another bump to recruiting,

I don't care if this is an unpopular sentiment, but Baker and VanVleet produced a huge chunk of Marshall's salary bumps.

In the first year in the AAC, Shocker fans were on the AAC message boards saying that WSU's second unit could win the AAC. With the recruiting ability enhanced by a F4 and an undefeated season, the Shox couldn't win the AAC crown and lost early in the NCAA's to Marshall - the school, not the coach.

[ShockingButTrue]

Following a F4, there's a huge ability to bump recruiting. FVV, Baker, Cotton, and Early were essential parts of that F4 run. That's 2 AA's and 3 NBA guys (two Fr and one Jr). I'd include Wessel, but didn't he forfeit his scholarship? Then an undefeated season provided another bump to recruiting,

I don't care if this is an unpopular sentiment, but Baker and VanVleet produced a huge chunk of Marshall's salary bumps.

In the first year in the AAC, Shocker fans were on the AAC message boards saying that WSU's second unit could win the AAC. With the recruiting ability enhanced by a F4 and an undefeated season, the Shox couldn't win the AAC crown and lost early in the NCAA's to Marshall - the school, not the coach.

They won the regular season.

[pie n eye]

Following a F4, there's a huge ability to bump recruiting. FVV, Baker, Cotton, and Early were essential parts of that F4 run. That's 2 AA's and 3 NBA guys (two Fr and one Jr). I'd include Wessel, but didn't he forfeit his scholarship? Then an undefeated season provided another bump to recruiting,

I don't care if this is an unpopular sentiment, but Baker and VanVleet produced a huge chunk of Marshall's salary bumps.

In the first year in the AAC, Shocker fans were on the AAC message boards saying that WSU's second unit could win the AAC. With the recruiting ability enhanced by a F4 and an undefeated season, the Shox couldn't win the AAC crown and lost early in the NCAA's to Marshall - the school, not the coach.

2010 - 65th
2011 - 27th
2012 - 11th
2013 - 17th
2014 - 6th
2015 - 13th
2016 - 13th
2017 - 8th
2018 - 21st
2019 - 66th
2020 - 39th

Those are KenPom ranks. 2011, 2016, 2017, 2018 are all non-Baker/VanVleet years.

Yes, you can say that we didn’t achieve as much tournament success in those years but that would be ignoring the fact that we barely lost to VCU in 2011, lost by three to UK who went on to the elite 8 in 2016.

KenPom ranking is a better judge than NCAA tourney finish because of the one and done format. Just ask Gonzaga, KU, UK, Duke, Virginia etc who entered the tourney with a high seed and great team only to be knocked out in the first weekend by a lower seed.

[ShockerFever]

Following a F4, there's a huge ability to bump recruiting. FVV, Baker, Cotton, and Early were essential parts of that F4 run. That's 2 AA's and 3 NBA guys (two Fr and one Jr). I'd include Wessel, but didn't he forfeit his scholarship? Then an undefeated season provided another bump to recruiting,

I don't care if this is an unpopular sentiment, but Baker and VanVleet produced a huge chunk of Marshall's salary bumps.

In the first year in the AAC, Shocker fans were on the AAC message boards saying that WSU's second unit could win the AAC. With the recruiting ability enhanced by a F4 and an undefeated season, the Shox couldn't win the AAC crown and lost early in the NCAA's to Marshall - the school, not the coach.

It’s so strange that we didn’t hear any complaints from you about Marshall during those “lean” years. Forget to take your shades off?

[molly jabali]

You will find few who love Freddy more than me. Talked him up well before he got here.

But you have lost your damn mind.

FVV played roughly 15 mins a game, averaging 4 ppg and 2 rpg on the Final Four team as a Fr. On a team that lost 5 seniors (including Murry and Stutz) from a team that went 27-6 and earned a #5 seed in tournament.

fHCGM was gonna get paid, regardless of FVV. Baker, FVV, Armstead, and Early gave him a reason to make it on Wichita.

Still laughing at your second line...:)

[Horn28Clem30]

I think that's completely backwards myself. Without GM, you may have never gotten the chance to see FVV in the NBA.

[WuShock16]

2010 - 65th
2011 - 27th
2012 - 11th
2013 - 17th
2014 - 6th
2015 - 13th
2016 - 13th
2017 - 8th
2018 - 21st
2019 - 66th
2020 - 39th

Those are KenPom ranks. 2011, 2016, 2017, 2018 are all non-Baker/VanVleet years.

Yes, you can say that we didn’t achieve as much tournament success in those years but that would be ignoring the fact that we barely lost to VCU in 2011, lost by three to UK who went on to the elite 8 in 2016.

KenPom ranking is a better judge than NCAA tourney finish because of the one and done format. Just ask Gonzaga, KU, UK, Duke, Virginia etc who entered the tourney with a high seed and great team only to be knocked out in the first weekend by a lower seed.

Might want to check your years. Freddy and Bake played from 2013 season to 2016 season, so the non-years were before and after that.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

I can't believe I am even going to dignify this nonsense with a post. I love FVV and he no doubt elevated WSU to new heights and his success will further help recruiting, but HCGM had success prior to FVV, with FVV, and after FVV. To negate either is pure stupidity.

This is thinking straight outta Phog net. Maybe looking through your crimson and blue colored glasses.

[pie n eye]

Might want to check your years. Freddy and Bake played from 2013 season to 2016 season, so the non-years were before and after that.

12-13 was the final four year, their freshman year. 13-14 was undefeated year. 14-15 was battle of Omaha. 15-16 we got stuck in the play in. The years I listed are the year in which the season began.

[60Shock]

This has to rank up there at the very top of one of the stupidest arguments ever.

Both gained professionally and and monetarily because of each other and the other outstanding players Marshall recruited and Fred played with, and improved, plus the overall success of our program.

Fred is tremendous and I have even more tremendous respect for for him as an individual. But without the Final 4 and the the Undefeated season, and Marshal's talent for developing PG"s, would he have even gotten a bid, coming perhaps from a lesser school, to even play in the NBA? Maybe? Maybe not?

Hopefully, he would have because he certainly deserves everything he has worked so hard for..

Take away Fred from Marshal (No Coach of the Year), and take away Marshal from Fred ((maybe no NBA), there is certainly the possibility that things could have worked out significantly differently for both.

[Aargh]

I watched all of FVV's AAU games the summer between his Jr and Sr years. They were available on the Net. He played against the #1, #3, and #5 PG's in AAU ball that summer, and he outperformed every one of them. FVV was incredibly well developed before he got here.

He wasn't as quick or as flashy as those top-rated PG's, but he was unstoppable. If not covered by a help defender on drives, he went to the bucket. If a help defender came to challenge him, he just passed the ball past them to a big near the basket. If his team was behind and points weren't coming from other places, he switched to being a shoot-first PG and racked up points.