Fred VanVleet (2012-16) "Future" Shocker Sports Hall of Famer

[Shocker1976]

You really don’t. Every person has strengths and weaknesses. Your POV is from far away and don’t realize or refuse to see what he accomplished for Wichita State University, and the city of Wichita. I know people who have interacted with him and recognize his strengths. You are far away, You’re POV is fixated, has no balance, and you’ve proved that time and time again.

Shockm you are correct that I live "far away" from Wichita and will acknowledge my last visit to Wichita was in April 2003 to attend my older sister's funeral. However, I have friends and relatives who live in Wichita and its surrounding suburbs who have kept me informed about WSU and the City. As I don't know you I won't pretend to presume I know what and how you feel about various subjects.

I will inform you that I also have friends who have personal relationships with WSU faculty, administration and athletes. These people may have provided me with insight into Marshall's actions of which you are unaware.

[WuDrWu]

Shockm you are correct that I live "far away" from Wichita and will acknowledge my last visit to Wichita was in April 2003 to attend my older sister's funeral. However, I have friends and relatives who live in Wichita and its surrounding suburbs who have kept me informed about WSU and the City. As I don't know you I won't pretend to presume I know what and how you feel about various subjects.

I will inform you that I also have friends who have personal relationships with WSU faculty, administration and athletes. These people may have provided me with insight into Marshall's actions of which you are unaware.

Second and third hand information and experiences don't mean dick when compared to first hand, which a few people have on this fine forum that do actually live here and deal directly with those involved and those that matter. So GFY and your opinion.

[apkbaum]

Shockm you are correct that I live "far away" from Wichita and will acknowledge my last visit to Wichita was in April 2003 to attend my older sister's funeral. However, I have friends and relatives who live in Wichita and its surrounding suburbs who have kept me informed about WSU and the City. As I don't know you I won't pretend to presume I know what and how you feel about various subjects.

I will inform you that I also have friends who have personal relationships with WSU faculty, administration and athletes. These people may have provided me with insight into Marshall's actions of which you are unaware.

We found Patty Beamers BFF!!!

[Shocker1976]

Second and third hand information and experiences don't mean dick when compared to first hand, which a few people have on this fine forum that do actually live here and deal directly with those involved and those that matter. So GFY and your opinion.

Why such gutter language from a poster who usually takes the high road? Are you implying that you and your few close friends on Shockernet are the only posters with first hand knowledge of Marshall's behavior? Did you gain all this first hand knowledge during your tea times with Boatright? Or maybe the "connecting of dots" is bearing too heavily on your Marshall fandom?

May surprise you that first hand knowledge of Marshall's behavior is what led me to post my initial request that he honor his public pledge to terminate his employment as Head Coach on his 60th birthday. I had no idea and little belief that the boorishness of the man would lead to the debacle Shocker fans witnessed. Two men with first hand knowledge I would like to hear from:

1. FVV publicly state why he remained out of the fray until IB established himself as Head Coach and demonstrated he could recruit players possessing talent sufficient to compete in the AAC.

2. AR publicly explain why he gave up a starting role on a Shocker Roster many think was the best roster under Marshall's tutelage for Oklahoma and Lonnie Kruger where he achieved First Team All Big 12 credentials his Senior year.

Regrettably for those of us posting our opinions on Shockernet my first hand knowledge as of today informs these two men will continue down the high road they have been following since departing WSU.

[wichshock65]

Family.

https://twitter.com/tayloreldridge/status/1416479508849467396?s=19

[another shocker]

the greatest shocker, after antoine carr and dave stallworth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdNt0Y7AX0I

[SHOXAAC]

the greatest shocker, after antoine carr and dave stallworth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdNt0Y7AX0I

X before FVV.

[WuDrWu]

FVV before AC.

[Kung Wu]

FVV uber alles.

[pie n eye]

It is great seeing Fred back at CKA. The line at his pop up shop was deep.

[ShockingButTrue]

FVV before AC.

Real quick Doc; remember when AC decided to stay home for his Senior season, risking injury, when he most probably would have been a top 15 pick (at worst), on a team that was on sanctions no less? Were you around then?

AC is that foundation that GGG refers to when saying all that he did was refurbish the place, not build it, which is true, as you know.

But, you have a right to your opinion. I'd put FVV in the top 5 (maybe).

[WuDrWu]

Real quick.......

Yes, I remember.

I also remember why.

Yes, I was around then.

I don’t disagree that AC is older. Older doesn’t mean he’s better. And believe me, I defend the older players.

Time will tell what Fred will or won’t do to help move the program forward. I know what AC has done.

You’re entitled to your own opinion as well.

Top 5 is a special group in our program. I’m glad you can consider Fred for top 5. I’ll admit there’s an argument that could be made for Fred to be 5th best all time. It’s a poor argument, but it can be made.

6 or below? Get help, fast. (Quote “top 5, maybe”).

[shoxlax]

Don’t remember Stallworth as I wasn’t alive for most of his career.

Taking into account how strong the Valley was then and in the early eighties, top four in a very debatable order are X, Stallworth, FVV and AC.

X was one of the top 5-10 players in the nation for two years running and maybe the top 2-3 his senior year. AC had the advantage of starting from Day One unlike the others which helped his legacy. But X took over more games than almost any college player I have ever seen and we didn’t even win some of those.

[ShockingButTrue]

Real quick.......

Yes, I remember.

I also remember why.

Yes, I was around then.

I don’t disagree that AC is older. Older doesn’t mean he’s better. And believe me, I defend the older players.

Time will tell what Fred will or won’t do to help move the program forward. I know what AC has done.

You’re entitled to your own opinion as well.

Top 5 is a special group in our program. I’m glad you can consider Fred for top 5. I’ll admit there’s an argument that could be made for Fred to be 5th best all time. It’s a poor argument, but it can be made.

6 or below? Get help, fast. (Quote “top 5, maybe”).

Doc, discourse between us in minimal, at very best, which is preferable for both, but I felt compelled to possibly gain some insight on your opinion. That doesn't mean I'm condemning it either. If you remember why AC stayed, then surely you know why I rate him higher than FVV, who seems to be in the same class as a person.

Older is better, eh? As in G. Mikan, C. Lovellette, or Meadowlark Lemon? You're not the biggest Shocker fan on this board, and your wholly misguided inference is a good example of why our exchanges are best left at inconsequential, thank you.

NAMASTE Doc

[ShockingButTrue]

Don’t remember Stallworth as I wasn’t alive for most of his career.

Taking into account how strong the Valley was then and in the early eighties, top four in a very debatable order are X, Stallworth, FVV and AC.

X was one of the top 5-10 players in the nation for two years running and maybe the top 2-3 his senior year. AC had the advantage of starting from Day One unlike the others which helped his legacy. But X took over more games than almost any college player I have ever seen and we didn’t even win some of those.

I'm not disputing any of what you say shoxlax.

AC started as a Frosh because he was already one of the top 40 players in the Country, in D1, and would have started at Kentucky if he went there, and he could have. He felt it was time to put Wichita back on the College Basketball map, which is exactly what happened. He then stayed true to his commitment...

I'm as grateful and big a fan of FVV as anyone on this board, including the estimable Doc. But in Today's College Basketball world a player like Antoine ain't going to Wichita State. Unless there's another Antoine out there...