Announcement

**Wooglin** · January 23, 2019, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by MadDog View Post

Fev, I agree with you that we’re never going to have a roster full of 4 and 5 star recruits. I also agree that our roster is primarily 2 and 3 star guys. I don’t think we can be successful in the AAC with a roster of 2 and 3 star guys. I think that realistically we should be able to maintain a roster with three ( 4) star guys and the rest 3 star given our recent history, fan support, name recognition, national exposure, etc.

I believe that the Shocks bread and butter has always been the 2-3 star player that stick around for 4-5 years. Give me a 22-23 year old 3 star MAN to go against a 4 star 18 year old kid any day.

**60Shock** · January 23, 2019, 11:36 PM

Just what future are we taking about?. The Impossible Dream or something that comes somewhat closer to reality.

Even with the knowledge of Landry's and Reeves leaving, many still were enamored with the tremendous over-hyped Shockernet BS build-up of this year's outstanding incoming class. Mixing their tremendous potential of being better athletes than those who came before them, because our recruiting had miraculously not only had greatly increased in the caliber of expertise and skill levels of the recruit, but in size as well, because we were now in the Mighty American Conference.

And so the Shockernet predictions still rang forth that it was obvious that with our two returning Seniors, and AM, plus a JUCO All America PG, (not withstanding that none of whom had played a significant number of Div 1 minutes, if any, the season before due to injuries or other circumstance), we would never the less finish somewhere around 4th in the Conference.
And even more farfetched, somehow stand a very good chance of winning the American Conference Tournament. Hell some were still mouthing this BS just a few days ago

But common sense is not in nowadays. It has been replaced by "Dreamers" who get wrapped up in their fantasized dreams of incoming Freshmen, past and future, who all are going to immediately blossom into bigger, and larger, and faster, Ron's, Fred's. and Landry's.

Unfortunately,next years incoming Freshmen will not have such formable players to learn from as Ron, Fred, and Landry had.

I wish they did.

No Shockerneter (to the best of my knowledge) is responsible for recruiting or coaching, nor for how our players perform, whether good or bad.

And for that we can be thankful.

**MadDog** · January 24, 2019, 12:27 AM

Sorry Wooglin, I cant agree. I agree with your basic premise that we have been wildly successful with 2 and 3 Star players in the past. I believe that was due in large part to a MVC conference full of weak teams. The weak teams gave our 2 and 3 Star guys a chance for success and grow their confidence. That lead to a lot of fourth and fifth year seniors when they could develop in an environment where they could be successful.

That’s also why teams at our current P6 level play mostly buy in games in the non-con, to give them a chance to develop their roster. When you’re in the MVC and conference games start, If you get punked one game, well Drake or equivalent is up next and everybody’s psyche is AOK again after beating them for the 27th straight time. In the AAC there aren’t those mending opportunities. You are reminded night after night that you are not quick enough to stay in front of your man on defense, not strong enough to keep from losing the ball when you get bumped when dribbling, or tall and heavy enough to keep from getting pushed under the basket when rebounding. There is a cumulative effect that leads to a lot of losing and guys washing out before their fourth and fifth years.

I think if we can get equivalent level players to our conference peers we will again rise to the top. I don’t know why so many want to settle for physically inferior players. One of the reasons we joined the AAC was so we could up our recruiting. That hasn’t happened yet. It needs to.

**AZ Shocker** · January 24, 2019, 02:48 AM

Lots of "solid" post in this here thread. Go Shocks!!!

**molly jabali** · January 24, 2019, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Wooglin View Post

I believe that the Shocks bread and butter has always been the 2-3 star player that stick around for 4-5 years. Give me a 22-23 year old 3 star MAN to go against a 4 star 18 year old kid any day.

Wooglin, I digress a bit...is your handle a shoutout to the awesome cafe in The Springs?

**FadedCrown** · January 24, 2019, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by MadDog View Post

Sorry Wooglin, I cant agree. I agree with your basic premise that we have been wildly successful with 2 and 3 Star players in the past. I believe that was due in large part to a MVC conference full of weak teams. The weak teams gave our 2 and 3 Star guys a chance for success and grow their confidence. That lead to a lot of fourth and fifth year seniors when they could develop in an environment where they could be successful.

That’s also why teams at our current P6 level play mostly buy in games in the non-con, to give them a chance to develop their roster. When you’re in the MVC and conference games start, If you get punked one game, well Drake or equivalent is up next and everybody’s psyche is AOK again after beating them for the 27th straight time. In the AAC there aren’t those mending opportunities. You are reminded night after night that you are not quick enough to stay in front of your man on defense, not strong enough to keep from losing the ball when you get bumped when dribbling, or tall and heavy enough to keep from getting pushed under the basket when rebounding. There is a cumulative effect that leads to a lot of losing and guys washing out before their fourth and fifth years.

I think if we can get equivalent level players to our conference peers we will again rise to the top. I don’t know why so many want to settle for physically inferior players. One of the reasons we joined the AAC was so we could up our recruiting. That hasn’t happened yet. It needs to.

Recruiting hasn't improved yet? Look at the recruits we have landed over our 2 years in the American.

All rankings are all from Rivals.com

Alex Lomax ★★★★ (133rd National, 26th Position)
Don't forget, he was signed with us for 4 months, if Penny doesn't happen we have him. It was a special situation and we landed him.

Tyson Etienne ★★★★ (123rd National, 19th Position)
This is our 2nd 4 star guard in 2 years in the American, and he is higher ranked (albeit different years) than Lomax.

For comparison in the Valley, our best recruit looks like...

Landry Shamet ★★★★ (88th National, N/A Position)
Now an NBA prospect with potential, had one All-American season in his Redshirt-Sophomore year.

We have landed 2 guards that are comparable to Landry in 2 years.

Just wait, our success in the Valley was by player development, now we can spend less time developing, and more time winning.

**Dan** · January 24, 2019, 09:57 AM

I’m excited about Tyson and Gordon. We need 2 more guys with high skill level.

**Dan** · January 24, 2019, 10:16 AM

We need some guards that can score

**Shockm** · January 24, 2019, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by MadDog View Post

Sorry Wooglin, I cant agree. I agree with your basic premise that we have been wildly successful with 2 and 3 Star players in the past. I believe that was due in large part to a MVC conference full of weak teams. The weak teams gave our 2 and 3 Star guys a chance for success and grow their confidence. That lead to a lot of fourth and fifth year seniors when they could develop in an environment where they could be successful.

That’s also why teams at our current P6 level play mostly buy in games in the non-con, to give them a chance to develop their roster. When you’re in the MVC and conference games start, If you get punked one game, well Drake or equivalent is up next and everybody’s psyche is AOK again after beating them for the 27th straight time. In the AAC there aren’t those mending opportunities. You are reminded night after night that you are not quick enough to stay in front of your man on defense, not strong enough to keep from losing the ball when you get bumped when dribbling, or tall and heavy enough to keep from getting pushed under the basket when rebounding. There is a cumulative effect that leads to a lot of losing and guys washing out before their fourth and fifth years.

I think if we can get equivalent level players to our conference peers we will again rise to the top. I don’t know why so many want to settle for physically inferior players. One of the reasons we joined the AAC was so we could up our recruiting. That hasn’t happened yet. It needs to.

3• guys who are seasoned Juniors and Seniors are a lot different from 3• players who
are all first year players and one seasoned Senior (Duff).

**Shocker1976** · January 24, 2019, 10:51 AM

This season I have only watched the Shockers play in person during the three games in the Charleston tournament. I have watched every game shown on television in South Carolina; if not televised, I have listened to Mike Kennedy radio broadcasts when available over the internet. And I have followed live game stats during each game. I remain positive regards the quality of players on the Shocker roster but offer the following observations:

1. "Team Chemistry" is lacking prompting two questions "Do the players like playing basketball with one another? Do the players like one another as human beings?"

2. "Team floor leadership" is missing prompting the question "Where is FVV when the Shockers need him?"

3. "In game coaching" is missing prompting the question "Where are coaches Forbes and Jans when the Shockers need them?"

A tough season to watch so far but not a tough season to remain a loyal Shocker fan. With a few in game breaks the Shockers would have a remarkably better record. I remain optimistic about this season and very optimistic about next season and the next season and the next season and the next.............................................. .....................................

**shocker43** · January 24, 2019, 01:07 PM

We have a lot of guys on this team who haven't shown us their full potential yet. We've placed a ton of responsibility on guys who hadn't played a single minute of D1 basketball, who in years prior wouldn't play close to the amount of minutes they've had to play this year.

With that said, according to Kenpom, our defense is better this year than it was last year. Our offense obviously sucks, but inexperience and deferring to two seniors, one who takes the worst shots ever seen on planet earth, will do that to a team. There are a lot of people on here giving up on this group, and already making decisions about the quality of guys coming who also haven't seen the floor of a D1 basketball game. We have a good group of guys, who are young and still make mistakes. We have a real, floor general type PG coming. We have a CG that fills up the stat box on both sides of the court, and is the second highest recruit in Marshall's tenure. We have a PF who can score at all levels, and played at the highest level in AAU ball. Plus, Teddy Allen will be eligible.

It is interesting to me that the same people who are saying that we can't expect freshman to come in next year and make an impact are also the ones saying that losing Lomax was a major blow to the team. Can't have it both ways.

**Rocky Mountain Shock** · January 24, 2019, 01:32 PM

This thread will be fun to bump and read in a few years. Well, fun for some, but not so much fun for others.

**rjl** · January 24, 2019, 01:55 PM

I think that most agree we'll be good again, but I also think most agree that this was a much bigger hiccup than anyone ever could have envisioned after the last 6 or 7 years of WSU basketball.

**OregonShocker** · January 24, 2019, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Dan View Post

We need some guards that can score

We need ANYONE who can score.

**wusphlash** · January 24, 2019, 03:51 PM

The core of near term teams is here now. Does the possibility of 1 or 2 guys leaving exist? Sure. That would still leave 9 or 10 current players on next years team.

To cite Shocker1976, chemistry and leadership are sorely missing. Who is going to provide that leadership going forward? TA? Maybe. A freshman? Possible but unlikely. Everbody else is currently in self-preservation mode which helps neither leadership or chemistry.

I have to question the wisdom of post game comments towards the need to go out and recruit better players. That would hardly bolster the confidence of a group of newbies sorely lacking same and needing every ounce they can muster. Those comments would be better served behind closed doors.

I honestly thought this team would be playing more consistently by now. Have some clear definition of who they are. Unfortunately we're still guessing who's going to show up game to game. Some have correctly pointed out that our conference schedule is heavily front loaded and we certainly need to take that into consideration. It will be interesting to see what questions , if any, might be answered through the remainder of this season.

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