Wichita State vs Temple Game Thread

[FadedCrown]

Absofreakinglutely.

It's amazing how spoiled segments of the fanbase are. I for one get extremely frustrated with the team and the results but also understand this was going to be a transition year. It doesn't take freaking rocket science to figure it out. Yes, this game should've been a W and that's extremely frustrating, but the bagging on the true freshmen is pretty garbage. I'm willing to give those guys an extended leash. Meanwhile, these same people defend the seniors, who are aged and have multiple years in the program and still act like freshmen and are as selfish as hell. It's pretty stunning.

And yes, Marshall is definitely responsible for this one. The subbing patterns, the timeout situations, the end-of-regulation play-calling. All big ass FAILS today and arguably over the course of his career.

In my years watching (albiet limited), it seems that late game sitautions are not Marshall's forte no matter who is on the roster. I would name a couple games but I feel bad enough about WSU basketball right now as it is.

[Aargh]

The last play seems to have been an on-court breakdown, per Eldridge. From his article:

Samajae Haynes-Jones held the ball out front and WSU didn’t get Isaiah Poor Bear-Chandler out to set the ball screen until six seconds were left on the shot clock. Haynes-Jones took the screen and darted left, but was double-teamed and that forced the pass to an open Dexter Dennis to be high enough to make Dennis to jump.

That split-second mattered because by the time Dennis landed, Temple’s help defense had rotated and Dennis had to let fly a deep, well-contested three just to beat the shot clock that missed.

“I don’t know what happened,” Marshall said. “There was a ball screen where Poor Bear was the roller and Mark was supposed to come up behind the play. I don’t know how Dex got involved, but he did.”

I'll just add this from the article about SHJ without comment:

He broke a 63-all tie after getting free down low and finishing, then leaked out on a fast break and scored in transition and did so again the next possession, this time drawing two defenders and hitting Isaiah Poor Bear-Chandler for an easy basket. Another Temple miss sprang a WSU fast break and Haynes-Jones again leaked out and scored in transition for a 71-63 lead with 4:34 remaining and forced Temple to call a timeout.

“That’s just my creativity,” Haynes-Jones said. “My poise. My instinct. I’ve been doing that all my life. I’m getting better and better at making better decisions in those quick (moments).”

https://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article224004875.html

[B1ShockFan]

You are correct,it does not need a comment, it says it all.

[pinstripers]

and the time he dribbled into the defender and flung it toward the tunnel at the last minute

[TheShocktocles]

The final play in the end of regulation is just one of many that did not go well.. In my opinion SHJ could have destroyed that guy that was guarding him one on one and scored or dished for a score. The mistake was the attempt to set the screen. It caused the double team and the team did not handle it. Nothing to do but move on. I still like the future of this program moving forward. Got to bring in better guards and the ones we have need to improve.

[proshox]

I agree... give him space to operate or bring the screen much earlier... I think waiting so long to bring the screen made life easy for Temple... Temple already had a secondary defender waiting to help...

[pinstripers]

We have 3 centers (if Etch can still play) and 6 guys to play the other 4 spots, unless Brown gets a minute per half. Fatigue is gonna eat us alive the rest of the way.

[ShockTalk]

SHJ has averaged 35 mpg except for 2 games (didn't "need" him in one and foul trouble the other). MM has played 83 minutes in the last 2 games. If those 2 average 35 mpg, that leaves 130 per game. Assuming no JE, that divided by 6 (RT,JB,ES, DD, IPBC, and MU) is 21.7 mpg per player. Some might get 28, some 16 minutes. Any thing JE, RB, or AM might get reduces those numbers. For the "newbies", I don't see the fatigue thing. Yes, MM and SHJ may get fatigued, but that will mean more minutes for our future players.

[asiseeit]

Talk about the final play in regulation all you want but it never should have come to that. TURNOVERS.
There are turnovers and then there are really ugly turnovers. Big difference in a turnover like traveling or
a charge compared to a player getting stripped or making a bone head pass that results in an automatic
two POINTS the other way. I think JB may have been stripped twice for easy baskets. I know IC made
a bad pass and 2-3 other players ( I think SHJ, RT and maybe MM ) also made sloppy passes that were
immediately turned into POINTS without any chance to defend. Those kind of turnovers absolutely
killed us. ES has trouble in defending the dribble drive but he has a lot of company. He got stuck with the
ball in his hand a couple times with just a couple seconds left and had to force up almost unmakeable shots
so he should have been just 0-1. Two things cost us the game. Turnovers that led to transition POINTS and
terrible dribble drive defense by multiple players. I said it very early in the season that we would have to
play more and more zone.

[Topshock]

But didn't you hear, GM doesn't like zone and he is smarter than well.... anybody,

[ShockTalk]

asiseeit, given the number of newbies this team has and the number of minutes they are required to play, one has to approach who gives up what kind of TO differently. MM and SHJ are the seniors (even if SHJ is somewhat a newbie himself) have to be held to a higher standard. When they do sloppy things that has bad results and aren't pull like a freshman/1st year JUCO, it sends a bad message. They are the standard bearers. For the newbies, it has to be a learning moment. I'm not saying Marshall needs to be soft with them, but he cannot expect them to perform as seasoned players either.

[WuDrWu]

I enjoyed the game yesterday. Of course I hated the outcome, but I enjoyed the competition and I enjoyed the fight in our guys.

1. Temple is just better than us. Only McDuffie could start for them. Our 2nd best player missed the money time. I am proud of the effort and frankly, that the game was as close as it was is a bit of fools gold. Name the best 10 players yesterday. At best we have 1 of the top 4, two of the best 6 or 7 and 3 of 10. Those are tough matchups to win.

2. I understand the frustration with our defense, but folks, watch the game. When we went zone Temple got EVERYTHING they wanted AND we couldn't get a board. There were times they passed up great shots because literally they couldn't believe they were that unguarded. They missed wide open shot after wide open shot to help us keep and at times expand our lead. It was just a matter of time until they started falling. Our guys simply do not yet understand Gregg's zone and it's a by product of youth. It's not a simple zone, you have to rely on your teammates to be in the right spot and we just aren't there yet. Plus we stand around a lot. Dexter Dennis BUSTED ASS yesterday and even saw him standing, flat footed, arms down, 1 pass away and completely disengaged. And again, he was FAR from alone. At least we were winning the battle of the boards playing man.

3. I don't know what we can do with ES. The word is out and he's getting abused defensively....it sucks because he's busting his tail, but he's getting fatigued and it shows, mentally if not also physically. I just don't know what you do here because he has to play.

4. You keep seeing what Gregg told you we would see before the season started. Wild swings. One minute super, the next awful. 4 games Torres is making great strides then a couple where he falls back, and he's hardly the only one.

5. Without Jamie we're going to have very little chance to win more than a couple of games the rest of the way. PBC was solid yesterday, and he showed his talent, but overall you see his youth. He's got high D1 talent, and a child's mentality and focus. If he can put it together he's going to be really good.

6. Thought the crowd was great for 36 minutes, then panicked and ran out of gas, much like the team.

7. Feel bad for Midtgaard. The kid is as positive and engaged as anyone you'll find. He's encouraging his teammates and trying to help them with plays etc. He deserves a better outcome. From an observational standpoint only, a little concerned about Teddy.

8. Setting the over under at 2.5 on the number of additional signees we'll have before August 1, 2019.

[Shocktoberfest]

6. Uhhh. Solid work for the 500 to 1000 plus who took off at the end of regulation. That never ceases to amaze me. In the middle of a Sunday afternoon. Oh well. I hope you had a nice dinner.

8. I hope you're not basing the number on your comment regarding TA in number 7.

[1972Shocker]

Regarding the 500 to 1000 fans who left at the end of regulation and the group that usually leaves at the under 4 media timeout you have to remember we still have a fair number of social season ticket holders who are their for status and visibility and who are not necessarily avid college basketball fans. Being seen and then making sure they beat the post-game traffic are their priorities. But we need and are happy to take their money.

[ABC]

I was only able to watch the game on my phone, but I had the same thoughts about the talent between the two teams.

Do you think DD's issue re the zone was lack of complete understanding?

[Kel Varnsen]

IPBC, Jaime, and DD will all likely play significant roles on next year's team. The rest of the team...I'm not so convinced.

[ShockTalk]

I think MU is also a keeper. Let's not forget, that it's commonly said here that Big Men take time to develop and that is something we've regularly seen.

Still believe RT may be the starting PG next year. That's another position (JUCO PG) that generally improves a lot the second year here.

[Dan]

My issue with RT is that he plays PG like he's never shot the ball in his life. I don't see how someone who shot over 40% from 3 and was a JUCO All American can be so different in D1.

[Stickboy46]

Burton, RT and ES need to become best friends and spend 120% of their summer putting up shots.

[pinstripers]

Some will be replaced. Some will get disgusted with the losing and leave.

[1972Shocker]

Looked at the final possession of regulation again. Some have commented that Poor Bear was slow getting the screen set. Not sure that was the case. 3G gave no indication on the sideline that he wanted Poor Bear to break to the top of he key any sooner than he did, Poor Bear set the screen with about 8.5 seconds left. However, Samajae really did not eve use the screen breaking a bit too soon and going 4 or 5 feet wide of Poor Bear allowing Pierre-Louis through with no resistance. Alflakpui was in automatic switch mode and he and Pierre-Louis forced Samajae very wide and over to the left sideline (with the sideline serving as a 3rd defender). Markis never really did trail the play as 3G suggested was supposed to be the case. All Markis did was move rather casually from the lower block up to the free throw line with Moorman dropping off to cover Poor Bear on his roll to the basket and with Rose dropping off Dexter to take Marquis leaving Dexter as the open guy to follow the play which to his credit he did. But Markis never really looked like he had an intent to follow the play.

But as has been pointed out the game should never have come down to this.

[proshox]

I think your timing is based on the game clock not the shot clock. I agree that HCGM was fine with IPC, but i think it is too late...

[im4wsu]

Arm-chairing, why not have Torres in for the final play instead of ES? ES won't shoot and doesn't drive much. RT won't shoot but can ans will drive and create and you still have DD, MM and SHJ to cover at the arc. I agree with those who said, work the offense and not just have SHJ jhold the ball and try to create a fuinal shot in the last three seconds.

[asiseeit]

SHJ is our only legit creator. Spread the court and let him attack the basket

[im4wsu]

SHJ is our only legit creator. Spread the court and let him attack the basket

I rather he be the catch and shoot guy. Otherwise it is one-on-five. At 37.9% on 2-point FG attempts AND only 19 FT attempts in 14 games, having him at the "attack the basket" guy does not compute with me.

Torres with 70% of minutes played, has one fewer assists; 10 fewer turnovers and shoots 70.8% on 2-point attempts.

Comparing the 1st 7 games to the last 7 games (not cherry picking, but half the games played), I see improvement in Torres and pretty flat for Jones:

	Torres 1st 7	Torres last 7	Jones 1st 7	Jones last 7
GS	3	7	7	7
MP	116	195	225	225
FG	5	14	33	35
FGA	21	31	91	96
FG%	0.238	0.452	0.363	0.365
2P	5	12	16	20
2PA	8	16	45	50
2P%	0.625	0.75	0.356	0.4
3P	0	2	17	15
3PA	13	15	46	46
3P%	0	0.133	0.37	0.326
FT	2	0	9	5
FTA	2	3	11	8
FT%	1	0	0.818	0.625
ORB	5	1	4	8
DRB	6	18	15	12
TRB	11	19	19	20
AST	15	30	28	18
STL	3	4	6	4
BLK	1	2	2	0
TOV	1	21	15	17
PF	9	7	20	16
PTS	12	30	92	90

[wusphlash]

A few of many things bothering me from yesterday.
1) How does Jamarius drive down the middle of the floor knowing there are Temple players behind him and not protect the ball?
2) Did the Shocker players trailing Jamarius try and warn him?
3) How does a Temple player, running towards our basket, pick Jamarius, turn around and beat the trailing Shockers back for a dunk?
4) Why set up Markis for a play at half court when he is a good candidate to be stripped?
5) Why, twice, do we throw weak bounce passes to the wings for easy Temple picks?
6) Why, twice, did not the receiver come to the ball? At least make the Temple player run into you. You might get a foul.
7) Why, since Temple's bigs weren't hurting us, didn't we go small rather than put one of our worst free throw shooters in cold off the bench?

I acknowledge that they are young and inexperienced but some of this you learn in high school.

[Stickboy46]

They may have "learned" that all in HS but nearly all of them were the biggest fastest strongest kid in HS. They could get away with it.

[Good News]

For several weeks now, I have nodded my head in agreement with our more level-headed posters as they look for bright spots in a rebuilding year and make great points that echo my own personal thoughts on freshmen, shooting, conditioning, ES, 3G, and many other topics. So much so, in fact, that I feel like have had nothing new to say... until I read a recent post that compels me to update my sentiments:

SOMEBODY PUSH THE GOT DAM PANIC BUTTON AND ALERT NORAD WE’RE GOING TO DEFCON 6 - forevershockerfan JUST POSTED AND DIDN’T USE AN EXCLAMATION POINT!!!!

After reading that, I felt like Gunnery Sergeant Hartman reaching into Private Pyle’s footlocker and finding a jelly donut - only less angry and more confused.

Stay with us FSF - we need you this season more than ever!

Also, speaking of needing people I’m pretty sure we can rip off a few victories at home if we give Tyrone Shoelace a spot next to the visitors locker room and spend a couple grand modifying the ventilation.

On some serious notes:

1. SHJ is a scoring guard at the D1 (yes, D1) level that is being forced into a pass-first PG role and struggling as expected. If anybody thinks Ron Baker could do much better, you don’t remember Orlando (with a significantly more experienced and skilled supporting cast). I remember Orlando.

2. DIsappointing effort by the crowd. I gave up years ago on my hopes that they could be more like the Spurs crowd - celebratory when things went well, but definitely a constant presence and ballast to help counterbalance negative developments. I originally thought this made no sense because the collective basketball IQ in the stands at Koch Arena is about 150 times greater than at the Spurs arena, but then again I guess that’s what happens when people actually understand bad developments.

3. I’ve been listening to coaches shows and postgame interviews since the days of dial-up internet. I already used the word disconcerting to describe 3G’s resignation earlier this year and it’s additionally disconcerting that I don’t know what to elevate it to.

4. Silver lining - in a parallel universe where one possession went differently and the Shocks pulled it out, 92 percent of you are posting on SN praising a “gritty team” that “found a way to win” and that “Marshall is getting his message through”.

[proshox]

It was loud in the arena. The game management crew never let the band take control during Temple timeouts. Big miss.

[Kel Varnsen]

For several weeks now, I have nodded my head in agreement with our more level-headed posters as they look for bright spots in a rebuilding year and make great points that echo my own personal thoughts on freshmen, shooting, conditioning, ES, 3G, and many other topics. So much so, in fact, that I feel like have had nothing new to say... until I read a recent post that compels me to update my sentiments:

SOMEBODY PUSH THE GOT DAM PANIC BUTTON AND ALERT NORAD WE’RE GOING TO DEFCON 6 - forevershockerfan JUST POSTED AND DIDN’T USE AN EXCLAMATION POINT!!!!

After reading that, I felt like Gunnery Sergeant Hartman reaching into Private Pyle’s footlocker and finding a jelly donut - only less angry and more confused.

Stay with us FSF - we need you this season more than ever!

Also, speaking of needing people I’m pretty sure we can rip off a few victories at home if we give Tyrone Shoelace a spot next to the visitors locker room and spend a couple grand modifying the ventilation.

On some serious notes:

1. SHJ is a scoring guard at the D1 (yes, D1) level that is being forced into a pass-first PG role and struggling as expected. If anybody thinks Ron Baker could do much better, you don’t remember Orlando (with a significantly more experienced and skilled supporting cast). I remember Orlando.

2. DIsappointing effort by the crowd. I gave up years ago on my hopes that they could be more like the Spurs crowd - celebratory when things went well, but definitely a constant presence and ballast to help counterbalance negative developments. I originally thought this made no sense because the collective basketball IQ in the stands at Koch Arena is about 150 times greater than at the Spurs arena, but then again I guess that’s what happens when people actually understand bad developments.

3. I’ve been listening to coaches shows and postgame interviews since the days of dial-up internet. I already used the word disconcerting to describe 3G’s resignation earlier this year and it’s additionally disconcerting that I don’t know what to elevate it to.

4. Silver lining - in a parallel universe where one possession went differently and the Shocks pulled it out, 92 percent of you are posting on SN praising a “gritty team” that “found a way to win” and that “Marshall is getting his message through”.

You hit the nail on the head with points 1 and 4. Wow.