We've lost our edge

[_kai_]

This fanbase is getting

[_kai_]

[SHOXAAC]

SHJ is currently shooting 34.9% from the field. Not too concerned about replacing his scoring. Markis is a great player, but I think Teddy is more suited to be a go to guy than him. That combined with an improvement from 2 jc guys and 5 true freshmen that are playing this year... I’m willing to put money down next year will be a higher scoring team.

Do you guys really not understand that this team is leaning on true freshmen like no Marshall team before? Essentially any true freshman that has played meaningful minutes for us the last decade has been surrounded by experience and more proven guys. These guys will get much much better

Love the kid, but Markis is not a great player.

[Jhook89]

With the group that is currently on the floor, I don't see where we replace the points of MM and SHJ.

SHJ is currently shooting 34.9% from the field. Not too concerned about replacing his scoring. Markis is a great player, but I think Teddy is more suited to be a go to guy than him. That combined with an improvement from 2 jc guys and 5 true freshmen that are playing this year... I’m willing to put money down next year will be a higher scoring team.

Do you guys really not understand that this team is leaning on true freshmen like no Marshall team before? Essentially any true freshman that has played meaningful minutes for us the last decade has been surrounded by experience and more proven guys. These guys will get much much better

[SB Shock]

I think Allen + combined minor increases from the rest of the returning team will more than make up for them. It will cause more balance. (don't take this as a knock on MM or SHJ)

It going to take more than "minor increases". When you start comparing advance stats from previous season, you really start to get the true stat of where this program is at. It going to be several years of development and bringing in new talent for this team to be capable of becoming a NCAA tournament caliber team.

Comparison of Player Efficiency Ratings between this year team and last.

JE 27.2
McD 22.2
Udeze 14.0
JB 11.4
SHJ 10.4
Eric S 10.2
Dennis 10.0
Brown 6.7
Torress 5.9

Allen (21.0 - 2017/18)

Last Year Team
Morris 26.8
Willis 23.5
Shamet 21.4
CF 18.1
Kelly 17.1
Reaves 16.3
McD. 15.1
Nurger 14.8
SHJ 14.7
ZB. 10.6


If you look at Morris career he went from 16.8 - 21.6 - 24.4 - 26.8, an average of 17% increase/year (28.5%/12.9%/9.8%)

Assuming the team whole team improves 20% accross the board this is what next year team might look like.

[Projected 2019/20]
JE 32
Allen 25
Udeze 17
JB 14
Eric S 12
Dennis 12
Brown 8
Torress 7

These numbers don't make me feel all that optimistic. Now the good thing is, this year team has the ability to improve itself (and it numbers on paper).

[C0|dB|00ded]

#126.4
ShockTalk commented
23 hours ago

Cold, I didn't need to add the defensive numbers, but that was the difference between an experienced team and an inexperienced team.

The Final Four team was not a great, maybe not good, shooting team, yet there's a lot of posters on this board concerned about a bunch of freshmen/newbies shooting numbers. For myself, this team needs to be worked hard on it's D more than it's offense which probably should be kept simple. Let your defense help make your offense easier.

The logical and proven method of turning L's into W's and the foundation of the Gregg Marshall Way.

The strange thing is, unless your team is woefully unathletic, afflicted with a case of T-Rex arms, or suffers from severe cognitive disability, defense can be taught. And it shouldn't take very long unless the team is completely out of shape. I will point again to VCU as a great example of where we should aim as we attempt to regain a bit of the old Play Angry. Hopefully last game's tape will be running non-stop a la The Christmas Story in Shocker player's dorms and meeting rooms all during the break. But why am I feeling skeptical that will happen? If I hear one comment from the coaching staff or players resembling, "we will just put the VCU game behind us and move forward trying to improve", I will know we are nowhere near the bottom yet. More pain will need to be experienced.


T


...:cool:

[pinstripers]

Couple things........this is not a good basketball team, and secondly, not all bad shooters improve and go to the NBA

[Stickboy46]

With the group that is currently on the floor, I don't see where we replace the points of MM and SHJ.

I think Allen + combined minor increases from the rest of the returning team will more than make up for them. It will cause more balance. (don't take this as a knock on MM or SHJ)

[ShockTalk]

Markis is feeling all the defensive attention he is getting without others producing or producing more consistently. The first game against LA Tech aside, MM was 36-63 (.571) FG and 15-25 (.600) from 3 in his next four games. Since that time, he is 31-88 (.352) FG and 8-34 (.235) from 3. He could maybe help get his teammates more involved as he only has 10 assists so far and 5 of those were in the Rice game.

Ricky still has a lot to prove. His assists to turnovers was great in his first 8 games (18/2), but with the added minutes to almost 30 pg over the last 4 games, he's 16a/17to and that includes a 6a/1to game against ORU. He also doesn't get to the line having shot only 4 FTs so far this season. While his 3 pt shooting is lacking (2/25), inside the arc he's great at 15-21.

ES and DD both have the same problem of lack of consistency, however, their only in their first 12 D-I games. In 4 of ES's games, he was 18-41 (.439) FG, 12-24 (.500) from 3, and scored 62 points (15.5). The other 8 games were 16-67 (.239) FG, 6-44 (.136) from 3 and 38 points (4.75). DD's inconsistency is a little different. He did have back to back bad shooting games against OU and JSU, but generally shoots well. Outside those 2 games, he's 19-42 (.452) FG and 7-17 (.412) from 3. However, in 4 games he had 48 points (one game was 19) and the other 3 only 12. I'd put JB in this group as well. In 8 of his games, he's shot .452 FG and averaged 6.6 points. How many here realize he had 22 rebounds in the last 3 games. I have very high hopes for these players as they are tough as nails, hard workers on the floor. Looking for better consistency the rest of the season.

I'm still not convinced that Teddy is a 4. Height and weight, that puts him squarely between Rod Brown (6'6"/215) who looks small at the 4 and Ron Baker (6'4"/220) in size and he cannot shoot/stretch the defense like Baker could (if he was a 4). TA is the same height as DD and 1" taller than JB.

While JE is scoring and rebounding, he has to reduce his fouls and improve his stamina if he's to be a big impact player. IMO, an underrated player at this point is Udeze. MU also needs to reducing his fouling, but lets remember that he's only a freshman. He's putting up nice numbers for a freshman 5: 14 mpg, 3.4 rpg, 4.2 ppg, while shooting .561 FG. In only 3 mpg less than JE, he is turning the ball over at half the rate of JE. With JE out, MU, IPBC, and AM will all get to prove themselves. As I've said, I feel very good about MU. I believe IPBC has a lot of potential and needs to keep his head up and just work hard. We'll all see what possibly extended minutes will mean for AM.

Lastly, as a team, we are horrible at the line. Much of are future is in the hands of JE, MU, ES, DD, and JB. They are a combined 68-120 FT (.567). That will cost us wins.

[OregonShocker]

No; he's eyeing the assistant coach position at Ill State.

[Shockm]

Rational thinking alert!!

Wrong. Now you will be tainted by some as a "Sunshine Pumper" . They know best, because they are Pessimists, and smarter than you while you are dumb because you take the optimistic view. Just wait. It will happen. :)

By the way, I share some pessimistic views about this year, but I agree with you that it is not smart to limit players who may still grow and improve too early in their WSU career. There are lots of Shockers who didn't improve until the end of their first year and start of their second year. You just named a few. I just don't like having too many projects at the same time.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Some quick homework shows:
First 10 games for Ron B - 23-63 from the field 37%. 16-50 from 3 for 32%
First 11 games for FVV - 12-32 from the field for 38%. 5-12 from 3 for 41%
First 11 games for Cleanthony - 53-122 from the field for 43%. 7-32 from 3 for 22%.

Different times and different teams but the three future NBA players didn't exactly scorch the nets at the start.

FWIW.

Rational thinking alert!!

[asiseeit]

I am already on record saying if RT is our starting PG next season it will be another long disappointing
season. He is a liability on defense, shooting, and taking care of the ball versus other good back courts.
Although it remains to be seen I am already pretty confident that Gordon is going to be a stud
playing both the three and the four and I know TA will be very solid. With those two we won't miss MM.
RB will really need to improve A LOT to be in the mix at power forward. I'll go on record right now saying
TE will start at point. ES/DD/Gordon will share duty at the two guard and small forward spots. Hope we
don't lose ANY centers for any reason. We will win at least 22 overall and 11 minimum in the AAC.
TE and Gordon are going to be very good and play significant minutes. ES and DD will be MUCH
improved. Long wait so I'll have to just enjoy watching this years group and hope they peak at year end.

[molly jabali]

As the season rolls on this year I want all of you to keep an eye towards next season. Just think:

- A senior Torres running the show from the point. The first pure point to run the show since FVV. He’s already showing flashes of having what it takes to be a good floor General. Now imagine him taking the second year JC jump that we have seen so many times.

- Stevenson and Dennis manning the wings. Best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Both have shown the potential to be cornerstone 2 way players you can build your team around. With a full season of being put through the fire under their belts, they really could develope in to a couple bad, bad dudes.

- The mean SOB Allen at the 4. The heart, soul, and attitude of the team. He sets the tone on both sides of the court with his play. His ability to get a bucket and be a go to guy will take the pressure off the other guys make everyone around him better.

- Senior Echenique locking down the 5 spot. What’s this guys potential at this point? Best big man we’ ve had since the 80’s? Even if he doesn’t take the 2nd year JC jump he is already a good post player.

- Burton, Brown, Udeze, and Chandler all with a full year under their belts ready to provide rock solid depth. Each had shown flashes of how they could be good contributors in the future.

- The incoming freshmen class of Etienne, Gordon, and Fernandes all look extremely promising. Fourtunately, unlike this year we shouldn’t need any of them to play huge mintutes and the opportunity to redshirt a couple of them is there.

My point is this year is going to be tough at times. Unless we beat Memphis I’d say it’s likely we start 0-5 in conference play. Keep an eye on the prize though. There is a light at the end up the tunnel and we are approaching it rapidly.

THIS....and ALL of this!

[Shocker_Power]

As the season rolls on this year I want all of you to keep an eye towards next season. Just think:

- A senior Torres running the show from the point. The first pure point to run the show since FVV. He’s already showing flashes of having what it takes to be a good floor General. Now imagine him taking the second year JC jump that we have seen so many times.

- Stevenson and Dennis manning the wings. Best thing about freshmen is they become sophomores. Both have shown the potential to be cornerstone 2 way players you can build your team around. With a full season of being put through the fire under their belts, they really could develope in to a couple bad, bad dudes.

- The mean SOB Allen at the 4. The heart, soul, and attitude of the team. He sets the tone on both sides of the court with his play. His ability to get a bucket and be a go to guy will take the pressure off the other guys make everyone around him better.

- Senior Echenique locking down the 5 spot. What’s this guys potential at this point? Best big man we’ ve had since the 80’s? Even if he doesn’t take the 2nd year JC jump he is already a good post player.

- Burton, Brown, Udeze, and Chandler all with a full year under their belts ready to provide rock solid depth. Each had shown flashes of how they could be good contributors in the future.

- The incoming freshmen class of Etienne, Gordon, and Fernandes all look extremely promising. Fourtunately, unlike this year we shouldn’t need any of them to play huge mintutes and the opportunity to redshirt a couple of them is there.

My point is this year is going to be tough at times. Unless we beat Memphis I’d say it’s likely we start 0-5 in conference play. Keep an eye on the prize though. There is a light at the end up the tunnel and we are approaching it rapidly.

With the group that is currently on the floor, I don't see where we replace the points of MM and SHJ.