We've lost our edge

[C0|dB|00ded]

I'm not jumping ship but we definitely have lost the edge. I've seen it for quite some time now. Last year was a massive neon sign. We are recruiting more talented players but we aren't playing "Angry" as SB mentioned. That begins and ends with the coach. It isn't his fault though, he was a madman in the past. No human being can withstand the kind of pressure he put on himself for any length of time. He's getting older now and likely on a few medications for stress and/or hypertension. Give me that hungry, 40 yr. old Gregg Marshall and Play Angry is back over night. I don't think we'll ever see true Play Angry basketball again. For us to reach the heights of 2013 we're going to have to reinvent Shocker Basketball - a prettier more offensively deadly version of Play Angry - just with sound defense. Not stifling. Stifling defense can slay anyone (just ask the ChicKUns) but it's fleeting unless the ringleader is constantly cracking his whip. Power-level players in 2018 don't respond so well to the whip.


T


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[shelback]

You just cant replace experience!!! SHOX have never had this kinda turnover. Part if the learning curve is getting wupped and your feelings hurt. Learn how to come back more mentally tough and more angry. Shocker player are made not born.

[Ashockalypse]

CB, You are a complete idiot. Crawl back under that rock you were under for so long. Now I know why.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Oh, in case anybody is confused, by edge I mean "Play Angry" via Gregg Marshall (and Co.)...

I couldn't give a **** if we missed every shot we took but the old Shockers would have played like their lives depended upon it. Half-time score would have been 19-23 and we'd have lost by maybe 9. It would have been atrociously ugly but it wouldn't have been embarrassing.

Remember how coaches used to describe us? "They're relentless in the first half, then when they come out in the second, they somehow manage to increase the intensity another notch". This was a given with a Gregg Marshall coached team. The "Angry" was ALWAYS there. Now we're lucky if we see it for one half over 5 games.


T


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[ShockTalk]

I'm placing this post on this thread as well.

Kentucky lost today to a very average Seton Hall. Their 9 player rotation is made up of 4 - 5 star freshmen, 1 - 4 star freshmen (rated #4 SG), 3 - 5 star sophomores, and 1 - 5 star senior transfer from Stanford for a total of 7 years D-I experience.

Think about that when you consider we're playing with our top 11 players made up of 5 freshmen, 1 RS freshman, 1 sophomore with very little experience, 2 first year Jucos, and 2 seniors, one a Juco, all mostly 3 star players with maybe two 4 stars with a total of 5 years D-I experience.

[ShockTalk]

UK lead by 6 at the half and SH won in OT.

[ShockTalk]

Also, SH's 5 top minute players, 1 senior, 2 juniors, and 2 sophomores playing just under 30 mpg per player combined. 3 of those players had 44, 43, and 40 minutes today.

[C0|dB|00ded]

And how was SH's effort? I'm not concerned about the score. I certainly didn't watch the game. But a team that continues to fight all game long usually has a chance in the end.


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[C0|dB|00ded]

I didn't watch the post-game; I don't need to. Ask yourself this: was Marshall composed (contrite even) after the game or did he look like he had to be somewhere killing a bunch of people? You don't need to answer. Old post-games after a loss were a ****-show with Marshall. He would glare, be sarcastic, and then walk off the podium looking to kick someones dog. When he reached Wichita it was straight to the practice gym where bodies (and wills) were bent.


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[asiseeit]

Losing both AR and Lomax HURT badly. Losing TA hurt. First, we have to go with bigger stronger guards.
SHJ and RT are poor undersized defenders who can't guard bigger guards and they certainly don't make
up for their lack of defense with good offense. They are weak on BOTH ends. I don't know how many times
this year I have seen a center get good inside post up position only to see a perimeter player ( not ES ) look
right at them and ignore them. Makes me sick. As for AM. Don't be hard on him when he really hasn't been
given a chance. A minute here and there isn't enough. All the centers play to soft.. Grab the damn ball
and MAKE someone stop you. Be aggressive on BOTH ends. If your going to make mistakes make them
being overly aggressive !!!!!! I can live with that.

ES needs to take on the role that Baker did when he was needed at PG. Three guards should be ES, DD and
JB. DD has to get more involved offensively. They can all drive it and should.

[C0|dB|00ded]

And the comments about Teddy being our savior are a stretch. Teddy was a massive distraction at WV and has the potential to be one here. Teddy requires a STRONG leader and surrounding ingrained culture. Teddy is good but he's no god - all hyperbole aside. For Teddy to truly help this Shocker team he needs to buy into Play Angry just as Wessel, Cotton, Baker, And VanVleet did. I haven't seen that out of Teddy yet. All I've seen is a guy who can score in traffic.


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[shock]

You have built Marshall up with hyperbole so much over the years that now that there are struggles you say he has lost his edge and is no longer the same guy he was. While it may be true that he has changed as a coach, he was never the coach you masturbated about in the school bathrooms. He is intense, he has not lost that (see current players comments and ARShocker) but now that the going has gotten tough again you start acting like a little b!tch. This team is younger than the 07 team, and built with a completely different type of athlete. It’s going to take time. There are no team wide issues with effort. Just a young team.

[C0|dB|00ded]

What an odd comment. It appeared at the onset like you were challenging my point, then you made my point and even threw in a "Marshall was never as good as anybody thought" for a cherry on top. Odd.

I agree Marshall has changed. I also agree this team is young. But youth and effort aren't necessarily correlated - at least not for long under Marshall Law. HCGM has always had teams that appeared incompetent offensively at times, that's nothing new, but we could always impose our defensive will. Once the offense came around we were world beaters.


T


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[ShockerFever]

Oh, in case anybody is confused, by edge I mean "Play Angry" via Gregg Marshall (and Co.)...

I couldn't give a **** if we missed every shot we took but the old Shockers would have played like their lives depended upon it. Half-time score would have been 19-23 and we'd have lost by maybe 9. It would have been atrociously ugly but it wouldn't have been embarrassing.

Remember how coaches used to describe us? "They're relentless in the first half, then when they come out in the second, they somehow manage to increase the intensity another notch". This was a given with a Gregg Marshall coached team. The "Angry" was ALWAYS there. Now we're lucky if we see it for one half over 5 games.


T


...:cool:

So are you saying you don't mind UglyBallTM?

[C0|dB|00ded]

So are you saying you don't mind UglyBallTM?

Shhhhhhhhhhh. (can't find a shhh emote)


We've always played UglyBallTM at times brother. You know this. We kept it in our back pocket when the offensive **** hit the fan. We've pulled more games out with UB over the years than I could shake a stick at.

P.S. Last year we played PrettyBallTM. How'd you like that?


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[proshox]

The program is sliding backwards... will it snowball?

Next year is going to be HUGE for the long term outlook...the magic days will be long gone history to recruits looking for NCAA success.

WSU in the MVC was the equivalent of Koch Industries finding an inefficiency in a market then exploiting the living hell out of it. We got 21 games a year against respectable but completely overmatched competition. This allowed us to become a well oiled, confident, sometimes cocky machine while moving up the polls. Those days are over.


Now we have to do it on a level playing field. Whether people like it or not, kicking ass year/in & year/out is much harder now. Not impossible, more fun to watch, but harder nonetheles.

[Ashockalypse]

We lose a few games cause we are a young team and you have the"program" sliding backwards". It wouldn't have been the program you suggest if it could be sliding backwards as easy as you say. Some on this board are dumber than I thought. Gregg might just leave because he sick of idiots on this board that know nothing about what it takes to be a great college basketball coach.. When we got Gregg we caught lighning in a bottle. If we keep him, we will have won the lottery. Lot of Jellybrains on here..

[SB Shock]

I think we are playing angrier this year than last year. The first half defense of Baylor was text book playing angry. Even the first half of this game had the angry attitude, we just couldn't hit shots

Maybe. The team defensive metric is slightly better than last year. WSU is forcing more turnovers compared to last year. But WSU rebounding metric is signifantly worse. WSU is 236 in allowing Offensive rebounds.

I do agree about today game I thought WSU was battling in the first half, I just wasn't expecting them to roll over in the 2nd. Just never seen that ever in the GGG team before.

[ShockerFever]

The program is sliding backwards... will it snowball?

Next year is going to be HUGE for the long term outlook...the magic days will be long gone history to recruits looking for NCAA success.

WSU in the MVC was the equivalent of Koch Industries finding an inefficiency in a market then exploiting the living hell out of it. We got 21 games a year against respectable but completely overmatched competition. This allowed us to become a well oiled, confident, sometimes cocky machine while moving up the polls. Those days are over.


Now we have to do it on a level playing field. Whether people like it or not, kicking ass year/in & year/out is much harder now. Not impossible, more fun to watch, but harder nonetheles.

Overreaction.

[1989]

Fans need to stop overreacting. This was always going to be an up and down year for us because of the youth. Our core is made up of freshman. Freshman are inconsistent. One minute they will look like world beaters, the next minute they will look like the worst D1 team you’ve ever seen. Shot making will be inconsistent with this group. Intelligent play will be inconsistent with this group. Effort will be inconsistent with this group. Not because Marshall has changed, but because freshman have not changed. These guys are who we all should have thought they would be.

The good news is that in the same way it should have been easy to predict that this years team would suck, its just as easy to predict that our future is bright. If you can’t see that guys like Dexter Dennis, Erik Stevenson, and J. Burton, along with some of the studs we got coming in like D. Gordon and T. Etienne have the traditional shocker edge, but with more talent, then you are blind.

And speaking of that traditional shocker “play angry” edge, let’s not pretend like every Marshall team prior to this one didn’t have guys who either looked soft or seemed to lack a certain work ethic, especially early in their careers here. I won’t call anyone out personally, but this program under Marshall has had several “looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane” type of dudes.

[proshox]

I do like what I see in the young guys... but losing can become a habit and we just don’t get many easy wins

[top20shock]

This entire thread is worthless and ignorant.

[Ashockalypse]

Credit that to Cold.

[N Crestway]

The program is sliding backwards... will it snowball?

Next year is going to be HUGE for the long term outlook...the magic days will be long gone history to recruits looking for NCAA success.

WSU in the MVC was the equivalent of Koch Industries finding an inefficiency in a market then exploiting the living hell out of it. We got 21 games a year against respectable but completely overmatched competition. This allowed us to become a well oiled, confident, sometimes cocky machine while moving up the polls. Those days are over.


Now we have to do it on a level playing field. Whether people like it or not, kicking ass year/in & year/out is much harder now. Not impossible, more fun to watch, but harder nonetheles.

Don't think this is an over reaction. Next year will be huge and WSU will still have a very young team.

[Ashockalypse]

You need to really go back to buzzard board and talk about your player contracts and the payroll and, even though you pay players, you nearly got smoked by NMSU yesterday.