WSU vs KSU game 1

[Rosewood]

Darn near a triple play if the short stop had just reached a few inches in front of him.

[KC Shox]

I never thought I would see the day when WSU was the third best baseball team in the state being blown out by our brothers up north and east.

Despite all of our history and tradition, we have fallen to the worst team in the state. It's okay. It seems like everyone here on SN is giving this team a pass because we are so young. I say BS, but the free passes are being given out like candy.

[ABC]

I agree with KCShox.

There is little doubt that the harsh, but productive, criticism on this message board, if listened to, will likely turn this team around.

So quit making excuses Shocker fans.

[ShockerFever]

This team doesn't care. Why? Because they're young and aren't used to each other. No chemistry at all whatsoever.

Totally different from the glory days..

I personally think that once in a lifetime scenario is occurring where the stars have aligned all at the right time to where KU and KSU both are having fluky good years and WSU got a complete new roster and are having one of their worst years in school history.

That scenario is 2009.

We also have lost a couple of good pitchers due to injury. Just keep that in mind.

But make no mistake about it, we do very much suck. Just gotta get lucky on that third weekend of May this year in Wichita and hope for the best.

[William]

This team doesn't care. Why? Because they're young and aren't used to each other. No chemistry at all whatsoever.

Totally different from the glory days..

I personally think that once in a lifetime scenario is occurring where the stars have aligned all at the right time to where KU and KSU both are having fluky good years and WSU got a complete new roster and are having one of their worst years in school history.

That scenario is 2009.

We also have lost a couple of good pitchers due to injury. Just keep that in mind.

But make no mistake about it, we do very much suck. Just gotta get lucky on that third weekend of May this year in Wichita and hope for the best.

I agree that the shockers have better years ahead, there is alot of talent on this team, bear in mind young shocker teams have done well in the past, due to our talented juniors leaving most of the time the history of shocker baseball is laden with big-time freshman and sophmore performances. I don't agree that ku and ksu are having fluke seasons, these programs are improving and have been for awhile, you have to understand that you can get drubbed in that conference while you are improving they both have had a big hill to climb and now both appear to be able to see light at the end of the tunnel. Congrats to them.

[Veritas]

These aren't the Shockers I'm used to seeing. Shocker baseball was similar to KU basketball: RELOAD rather than rebuild. Not this year. Pretty sad job of recruiting and filling in the anticipated holes.
Stephenson and his team need to do a gut check and regain some pride and focus.
There's never a good reason to lose to the Big XII coat-tail hanging kittens. Bad Job Shox!!! Get it together or hit the trail and let some players who WANT to play for WSU take your place.

[KC Shox]

These aren't the Shockers I'm used to seeing. Shocker baseball was similar to KU basketball: RELOAD rather than rebuild. Not this year. Pretty sad job of recruiting and filling in the anticipated holes.
Stephenson and his team need to do a gut check and regain some pride and focus.
There's never a good reason to lose to the Big XII coat-tail hanging kittens. Bad Job Shox!!! Get it together or hit the trail and let some players who WANT to play for WSU take your place.

An honest question needs to be answered. Does this team have talent and not playing with heart, or does this team have heart and they just don't have talent? No talent and no heart are hard to distinguish on the field in my opinion.

I'm thinking the talent level is not there. We don't even have one freshman even close to sniffing honorable mention for Freshman All-American. Our JUCO transfers have done nada.

The only bright spot this season is how the weekend rotation is performing.

[Veritas]

These aren't the Shockers I'm used to seeing. Shocker baseball was similar to KU basketball: RELOAD rather than rebuild. Not this year. Pretty sad job of recruiting and filling in the anticipated holes.
Stephenson and his team need to do a gut check and regain some pride and focus.
There's never a good reason to lose to the Big XII coat-tail hanging kittens. Bad Job Shox!!! Get it together or hit the trail and let some players who WANT to play for WSU take your place.

An honest question needs to be answered. Does this team have talent and not playing with heart, or does this team have heart and they just don't have talent? No talent and no heart are hard to distinguish on the field in my opinion.

I'm thinking the talent level is not there. We don't even have one freshman even close to sniffing honorable mention for Freshman All-American. Our JUCO transfers have done nada.

The only bright spot this season is how the weekend rotation is performing.

Good question. To me they have decent talent but no heart. Visting the hill in between the double header on Saturday, and the amount of errors committed by the team shows a lack of will, guts, concentration, and heart and desire to win.
I think they can be good - very good. However, they lack leadership, and MTXE. They are the Tin Man, Scarecrow, and Cowardly Lion all rolled up in one and they need to pay a long visit to Stephenson the Wizard.

[ShockBand]

Shocker baseball struggling mightily and the Royals are all alone in first (albeit just one week into the season and in the juggernaut AL Central). Hell is reporting chilly temperatures. Might this be a year when ShockBand looks forward to the Royals season as respite from the Shocks? Strange feelings.

[Sundevil Shox]

ksu

The talent vs heart question is difficult to answer. Given the lopsided scores for mid week games, my guess is that talent is the bigger of the two issues. The inexperience shows in awful fielding, base running lapses, mental approach at the plate, etc. Combine those and you get the kind of beatdowns we've seen this season.

[ShockerFever]

I agree that the shockers have better years ahead, there is alot of talent on this team, bear in mind young shocker teams have done well in the past, due to our talented juniors leaving most of the time the history of shocker baseball is laden with big-time freshman and sophmore performances. I don't agree that ku and ksu are having fluke seasons, these programs are improving and have been for awhile, you have to understand that you can get drubbed in that conference while you are improving they both have had a big hill to climb and now both appear to be able to see light at the end of the tunnel. Congrats to them.

Go back and tell me when was the last time we had 8 brand new position players and an entirely new pitching rotation and bullpen. It might take a while. We've had to reload before, but this was like starting over.

KU and KSU having 1 good half a year hasn't proven shiste. Let's see what happens in May. Let's see about June. Let's see about next year. Let's see about the next 5 years. Let's see about the next two decades. They have not 'made it' in anything.

Sorry.

[Veritas]

I agree that the shockers have better years ahead, there is alot of talent on this team, bear in mind young shocker teams have done well in the past, due to our talented juniors leaving most of the time the history of shocker baseball is laden with big-time freshman and sophmore performances. I don't agree that ku and ksu are having fluke seasons, these programs are improving and have been for awhile, you have to understand that you can get drubbed in that conference while you are improving they both have had a big hill to climb and now both appear to be able to see light at the end of the tunnel. Congrats to them.

Go back and tell me when was the last time we had 8 brand new position players and an entirely new pitching rotation and bullpen. It might take a while. We've had to reload before, but this was like starting over.

KU and KSU having 1 good half a year hasn't proven shiste. Let's see what happens in May. Let's see about June. Let's see about next year. Let's see about the next 5 years. Let's see about the next two decades. They have not 'made it' in anything.

Sorry.

ShockerFever, you're right. In years past we reloaded. This year, we're rebuilding. It seems to me that the coaches did not do a good job of anticipating the holes for this year. It seems they put all of their College World Series eggs in last year's basket (sort of a Omaha or Bust mentality). Were there that many surprises regarding players leaving early? There is a great amount of talent on the team, but all the talent in the world will not win you ballgames without heart and determination to win.
Also, the Shox can not afford to give any ground to a neighbor BCS school (KU, OSU, OU, etc...). I'm not worried about k-state as they should be kicked out of the Big XII anyway - all the more embarrassing to lose to them. Let's hope the Shox play like they should and run-rule them tomorrow.

[SB Shock]

I agree that the shockers have better years ahead, there is alot of talent on this team, bear in mind young shocker teams have done well in the past, due to our talented juniors leaving most of the time the history of shocker baseball is laden with big-time freshman and sophmore performances. I don't agree that ku and ksu are having fluke seasons, these programs are improving and have been for awhile, you have to understand that you can get drubbed in that conference while you are improving they both have had a big hill to climb and now both appear to be able to see light at the end of the tunnel. Congrats to them.

Go back and tell me when was the last time we had 8 brand new position players and an entirely new pitching rotation and bullpen. .

People continue to propagate this myth that this year is some outlier on players lost in a program. Every year WSU is hit in the draft. Every year there are injuries. Every year recruits choose to forgo college to spend time in the minors. In the 90's and early 2000's WSU actually had to have 5-6 starting pitchers (4 weekend, 1-2 mid-week) and now the program can only manage 3.

The difference between this year and years past - there was players ready to fill those vacated positions (sopht to senior). This year there wasn't and that is the fault of the coaching staff.

Gene/Brent have had several bad recruiting classes in a row that failed to either infuse talent or the projected talent has not developed (timing kind of corresponds with when Gene went to OU and then came back). And that is the difference from being a player on the national level or MVC team.

If you want to be a ranked team you have to bring it year after year. If you want to be a good MVC team once every 3-4 years you will recruit one good class - ride them for 3-4 year and have that good year and then start over.

I'm afraid what were seeing today is going to take several years to fix.


Here are few season where Shox have lost significant talent. You don't have to go back to far:


After the 1999 Season Shox lost:

Jeff Ryan - LF
Brian Peterson - C
Kevin Hooper - 2B
Tim Hayes - OF
Ben Christenson - SP
Nate Robertson - SP
Jason Kraft - SP
Marc Bluma -Closer
Greg Drumright - RP

After the 2002 Season
Brian Burgamy -3B
Randy Walter - RF
Dustin Hawkins - LF
Tanner Welsh SS
Justin McCarty - CF
Ryan Owen C
John Tetuan - SP
Adam Peterson - SP
Steve Haines - RP
Justin Maureau - RP/SP
Dustin Atkins - RP

After the 2004 Season
Nick Blasi - CF
Logan Sorenson - 1B
Shawn Smarsh - 2B
Bradon Green - 3B
Drew Moffitt - RF
Mark Johnson - DH
Steve Uhlmansiek - SP
Tommy Hottovy - RP

[Shocker85]

On the talent and heart question ... I think there are two other elements that go into this equation and they are experience and leadership, and maybe those two go hand-in-hand.

The coaches have been complaining about preparation and execution by the team and I think if there were experienced leaders on the team (think Wedge, Blake, Magness, Ryan, Schermerhorn, Dirks) the young players would be able to learn how to prepare and execute. Guys to say, "This is how it is done the Shocker way." and then go out and prove on the field how to be successful. There are vocal leaders (Wedge/Dirks) and guys who go lead by example and dedication (Blake, Ryan, Brandon Green, Gillaspie).

Shane talked about it last night on the TV broadcast when talking about the drop-off in Ryan Jones stats from '08 to '09 and the fact that he isn't hitting between Dirks and Gillaspie this year. None of the hitters in the lineup are feared so opposing pitchers can go right after every batter and no one has grabbed the opportunity by the balls and proven they should be a feared hitter.

The weekend starters are proving they can be leaders, but each of them only gets a chance once a week to lead by their example. With no relief pitcher or mid-week starter able to establish any sort of dominance, there is no mid-week "stopper" to stop the bleeding against the stronger mid-week opponents.

There is talent on this team, it just isn't very deep or developed. The talented guys, however, have not had the chance to be successful without being under stress of being "the guy". They're thinking too much and putting too much pressure on themselves. Pressing is a recipe for failure.

On the subject of bad recruiting or inability to see this coming, I think the coaching staff was blindsided BIG TIME by some of the departures. Examples:

• Dusty Coleman - I don't think the scouts were upfront early enough to allow for the possibility that Coleman might be signed. Dusty was a real diamond in the rough and a $600,000 signing bonus was completely out of the blue.
  
  Josh Workman - After an injury plagued career the idea that Josh would sign seemed unlikely.
  
  Logan Watkins - The coaching staff fully believed that Logan wanted to go to college, but he got good money and couldn't resist.
  
  Kenny Williams - Kenny didn't have a stellar career here due to grades and injury, the possibility was there that he would be back. The coaches probably knew he would sign if he got drafted by CWS, and his draft position was artificially high because of his pedigree, so not too surprising.
  
  Matt Smith - Matt pitched less than 60 innings in his 3 years here. Another guy who didn't have a great career here, and who was probably expected back. One more experienced guy lost.

Also, the loss of Logan Hoch, Tyler Fleming, Max Hutson and now Grant Muncrief has put the bullpen in total disarray. The loss of 2 senior, experienced arms plus Hutson (also a senior who was thought ready to return) leaving only freshmen can not be underestimated. Not only are the Frosh put in the pressure cooker, the bullpen is just plain short of guys. The bullpen is left with McKeever, Maune, and Kemp as returners with 36.2 innings between them. Unbelievable. I'm sure the coaches would have liked to let Cobey Guy redshirt this year, but they need him now.

Gotta also mention Kevin Hall here. He's another guy that would bring a lot to this team. He's fast and demonstrated late last season that he can hit. The idea of Hall and Baez getting on base in front of Jones, McKeever, and O'Brien and running wild to put pressure on the defense sounds pretty good. It's a pipe-dream, now.

Injuries are part of sports, so they can't be used as an excuse, but the fact that there is only VERY inexperienced guys available to fill-in magnifies the short roster this season.

I've said it since January ... this season is a write-off. The guys need to keep their heads right and improve. Someone needs to pull the team together and be a leader. I don't really think it is fair or right for the fans to denigrate or insult individuals. We should get behind them and praise what they're doing right. I know the players and coaches are beating themselves up over the results on the field this year, why should we pile-on?

--'85.

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

IVe only seen small smple sizes but Grimes is looking pretty good.

I havent been able to make a game yet this year so the ones I have seen have been the ones on TV.

So our weekend starters are what? Sophmores and freshman? They seem pretty good.

I agree with SB that recruiting just doesnt seem to be very good in years past. Now granted baseball is different now then it was then.
You got kids being offered WAY over the appropriate slot money to go pro. That will be a continuing trend unfortunately.

For those that follow alot closer than I how does next years recruiting class look. Only thing I know about it is Gould and I think its safe to say everybody may be holding their breath.