WSU vs KSU game 1

[SHOCKvalue]

I'm guessing some of you talent doubters don't follow college baseball recruiting in the off-season much. The "northern" programs - even the "powerhouses" - rarely see much real estate in the recruiting rankings. They just don't.

If you happened to have missed the news somehow, our freshman class of 07-08 was top 25, and the freshman class of 08-09 was top 15. Since our CWS glory days, we have occasionally sniffed the backside of the top 25, but last years class in the top 15 was a first, IIRC.

History and on-the-field results may prove these lofty rankings false, but if it does, then each of these classes as a whole had Gene & Co., Baseball America, and Collegiate Baseball all hoodwinked.

Now all this is not to say the previous 06-07 class wasn't subpar and/or didn't pan out due to the draft - contributing somewhat to our current weakness - but to say say that Gene and the guys haven't been out recruiting quality players is so ridiculous it's almost funny.

Take a chill pill everyone, we'll be fine in the long run. And FYI, I'm not a sunshine pumper. If any of you knew me personally, you'd guess me to be a fairly negative, glass-half-empty type, so it's fairly unusual for me to be on the positive side of things.

[Ramjet]

Veritas, just curious, did someone from Kstate pee in your Cherrios?

[William]

Talent appraisal

Top tier-

Kelley- think Steenstra without the run support
Lowell
Cooper- Big time talent
Flynn- Looper type progression
Grimes - think Standiford with speed
Brown- Jason adams type hitter
Obrien- Blake/mccloughan type career

Roll player talent

Mckeever-poor mans Jason White
Jones- cross between Tommy Tilma and Carl Hall
Caster
Lassley

There is alot of talent here, the problem is right now we are losing to teams with alot less talent.

Here are some guys that didn't need much experience

T. Driefort
Wimmer
C. Hall
Giaudrone
Green
Paxton
Steenstra
Dennis
Bluma
Bluma
Mirabelli
Hooper
Sorenson
Pelphrey
Adams
Blake
Taylor
Magness

I could give you 40 more but I don't have a media guide.

[BostonWu]

William - Not bad but Carl Hall was not a roll player. I guess you forgot he was MVC POY.

Also, I'm not sure about the T. Brown - J. Adams comparison. IIRC Adams had some pretty good gap power and was an above average defensive SS. I'd say Grimes is more in the mold of Adams with a little Wimmer mixed in.

[Veritas]

Veritas, just curious, did someone from Kstate pee in your Cherrios?

No, but I do think they have tried to pee in the Shockers' Cheerios. I think it is a joke that anyone from K-State can have any negative things to say about WSU. K-State's history is of riding the swells of KU and the Big 8 (XII). If K-State happened to be in the MOVAL, they'd be similar to a Drake in athletics. At least KU and WSU have earned their success. K-State hasn't...

[William]

Veritas, just curious, did someone from Kstate pee in your Cherrios?

No, but I do think they have tried to pee in the Shockers' Cheerios. I think it is a joke that anyone from K-State can have any negative things to say about WSU. K-State's history is of riding the swells of KU and the Big 8 (XII). If K-State happened to be in the MOVAL, they'd be similar to a Drake in athletics. At least KU and WSU have earned their success. K-State hasn't...

Not to be contrary or anything but have you heard what Jack Hartman and Bill Snyder did? just curious

[William]

William - Not bad but Carl Hall was not a roll player. I guess you forgot he was MVC POY.

Also, I'm not sure about the T. Brown - J. Adams comparison. IIRC Adams had some pretty good gap power and was an above average defensive SS. I'd say Grimes is more in the mold of Adams with a little Wimmer mixed in.

I would never suggest Carl was a role player, but a cross between him and Tilma would be in my opinion.

[Veritas]

Veritas, just curious, did someone from Kstate pee in your Cherrios?

No, but I do think they have tried to pee in the Shockers' Cheerios. I think it is a joke that anyone from K-State can have any negative things to say about WSU. K-State's history is of riding the swells of KU and the Big 8 (XII). If K-State happened to be in the MOVAL, they'd be similar to a Drake in athletics. At least KU and WSU have earned their success. K-State hasn't...

Not to be contrary or anything but have you heard what Jack Hartman and Bill Snyder did? just curious

Sure. Snyder was helped by the demise of the Shocker football program, and Hartman was a very good coach and had some pretty decent teams - similar to Drake back in the day.

The fact of the matter is that while K-State might be in the Big XII, they are not in the same league of prestige or success as most other Big XII schools, and if not for their affiliation in the Big XII would be in the same league as a FHSU, PSU, or Emporia.
They are a "minor league" team playing in the Big XII. But you have to hand it to them. Somehow, they manage to keep their heads (finances) above water gulping any amount of air (money) their little lungs (tin cup) will hold.

[WstateU]

Veritas, just curious, did someone from Kstate pee in your Cherrios?

No, but I do think they have tried to pee in the Shockers' Cheerios. I think it is a joke that anyone from K-State can have any negative things to say about WSU. K-State's history is of riding the swells of KU and the Big 8 (XII). If K-State happened to be in the MOVAL, they'd be similar to a Drake in athletics. At least KU and WSU have earned their success. K-State hasn't...

Not to be contrary or anything but have you heard what Jack Hartman and Bill Snyder did? just curious

Sure. Snyder was helped by the demise of the Shocker football program, and Hartman was a very good coach and had some pretty decent teams - similar to Drake back in the day.

The fact of the matter is that while K-State might be in the Big XII, they are not in the same league of prestige or success as most other Big XII schools, and if not for their affiliation in the Big XII would be in the same league as a FHSU, PSU, or Emporia.
They are a "minor league" team playing in the Big XII. But you have to hand it to them. Somehow, they manage to keep their heads (finances) above water gulping any amount of air (money) their little lungs (tin cup) will hold.

Have you ever spent any time in Manhattan? Have you been reading the recent news about Manhattan and the I-70 corridor? I’m far from a KSU fan, but you have your blinders on and are starting to sound like a 'typical' KU fan.

[William]

Veritas, just curious, did someone from Kstate pee in your Cherrios?

No, but I do think they have tried to pee in the Shockers' Cheerios. I think it is a joke that anyone from K-State can have any negative things to say about WSU. K-State's history is of riding the swells of KU and the Big 8 (XII). If K-State happened to be in the MOVAL, they'd be similar to a Drake in athletics. At least KU and WSU have earned their success. K-State hasn't...

Not to be contrary or anything but have you heard what Jack Hartman and Bill Snyder did? just curious

Sure. Snyder was helped by the demise of the Shocker football program, and Hartman was a very good coach and had some pretty decent teams - similar to Drake back in the day.

The fact of the matter is that while K-State might be in the Big XII, they are not in the same league of prestige or success as most other Big XII schools, and if not for their affiliation in the Big XII would be in the same league as a FHSU, PSU, or Emporia.
They are a "minor league" team playing in the Big XII. But you have to hand it to them. Somehow, they manage to keep their heads (finances) above water gulping any amount of air (money) their little lungs (tin cup) will hold.

interesting opinion. Tell me, what does this ink spill look like to you?

[t7017s]

On the talent and heart question ... I think there are two other elements that go into this equation and they are experience and leadership, and maybe those two go hand-in-hand.

The coaches have been complaining about preparation and execution by the team and I think if there were experienced leaders on the team (think Wedge, Blake, Magness, Ryan, Schermerhorn, Dirks) the young players would be able to learn how to prepare and execute. Guys to say, "This is how it is done the Shocker way." and then go out and prove on the field how to be successful. There are vocal leaders (Wedge/Dirks) and guys who go lead by example and dedication (Blake, Ryan, Brandon Green, Gillaspie).

Shane talked about it last night on the TV broadcast when talking about the drop-off in Ryan Jones stats from '08 to '09 and the fact that he isn't hitting between Dirks and Gillaspie this year. None of the hitters in the lineup are feared so opposing pitchers can go right after every batter and no one has grabbed the opportunity by the balls and proven they should be a feared hitter.

The weekend starters are proving they can be leaders, but each of them only gets a chance once a week to lead by their example. With no relief pitcher or mid-week starter able to establish any sort of dominance, there is no mid-week "stopper" to stop the bleeding against the stronger mid-week opponents.

There is talent on this team, it just isn't very deep or developed. The talented guys, however, have not had the chance to be successful without being under stress of being "the guy". They're thinking too much and putting too much pressure on themselves. Pressing is a recipe for failure.

On the subject of bad recruiting or inability to see this coming, I think the coaching staff was blindsided BIG TIME by some of the departures. Examples:

• Dusty Coleman - I don't think the scouts were upfront early enough to allow for the possibility that Coleman might be signed. Dusty was a real diamond in the rough and a $600,000 signing bonus was completely out of the blue.
  
  Josh Workman - After an injury plagued career the idea that Josh would sign seemed unlikely.
  
  Logan Watkins - The coaching staff fully believed that Logan wanted to go to college, but he got good money and couldn't resist.
  
  Kenny Williams - Kenny didn't have a stellar career here due to grades and injury, the possibility was there that he would be back. The coaches probably knew he would sign if he got drafted by CWS, and his draft position was artificially high because of his pedigree, so not too surprising.
  
  Matt Smith - Matt pitched less than 60 innings in his 3 years here. Another guy who didn't have a great career here, and who was probably expected back. One more experienced guy lost.

Also, the loss of Logan Hoch, Tyler Fleming, Max Hutson and now Grant Muncrief has put the bullpen in total disarray. The loss of 2 senior, experienced arms plus Hutson (also a senior who was thought ready to return) leaving only freshmen can not be underestimated. Not only are the Frosh put in the pressure cooker, the bullpen is just plain short of guys. The bullpen is left with McKeever, Maune, and Kemp as returners with 36.2 innings between them. Unbelievable. I'm sure the coaches would have liked to let Cobey Guy redshirt this year, but they need him now.

Gotta also mention Kevin Hall here. He's another guy that would bring a lot to this team. He's fast and demonstrated late last season that he can hit. The idea of Hall and Baez getting on base in front of Jones, McKeever, and O'Brien and running wild to put pressure on the defense sounds pretty good. It's a pipe-dream, now.

Injuries are part of sports, so they can't be used as an excuse, but the fact that there is only VERY inexperienced guys available to fill-in magnifies the short roster this season.

I've said it since January ... this season is a write-off. The guys need to keep their heads right and improve. Someone needs to pull the team together and be a leader. I don't really think it is fair or right for the fans to denigrate or insult individuals. We should get behind them and praise what they're doing right. I know the players and coaches are beating themselves up over the results on the field this year, why should we pile-on?

--'85.

:good:

[t7017s]

I'm guessing some of you talent doubters don't follow college baseball recruiting in the off-season much. The "northern" programs - even the "powerhouses" - rarely see much real estate in the recruiting rankings. They just don't.

If you happened to have missed the news somehow, our freshman class of 07-08 was top 25, and the freshman class of 08-09 was top 15. Since our CWS glory days, we have occasionally sniffed the backside of the top 25, but last years class in the top 15 was a first, IIRC.

History and on-the-field results may prove these lofty rankings false, but if it does, then each of these classes as a whole had Gene & Co., Baseball America, and Collegiate Baseball all hoodwinked.

Now all this is not to say the previous 06-07 class wasn't subpar and/or didn't pan out due to the draft - contributing somewhat to our current weakness - but to say say that Gene and the guys haven't been out recruiting quality players is so ridiculous it's almost funny.

Take a chill pill everyone, we'll be fine in the long run. And FYI, I'm not a sunshine pumper. If any of you knew me personally, you'd guess me to be a fairly negative, glass-half-empty type, so it's fairly unusual for me to be on the positive side of things.

:good:

[SHOCKvalue]

The fact of the matter is that while K-State might be in the Big XII, they are not in the same league of prestige or success as most other Big XII schools, and if not for their affiliation in the Big XII would be in the same league as a FHSU, PSU, or Emporia.

I'm not much of a fan of our holier-than-thou, inter-state B12 brethren, but this statement lacks a great deal of reality. Sure, no doubt K-State has coasted in the wake of the B12 big boats. But you're saying that if K-State wasn't in the B12 they'd be D2?

Are you serious? You can't be. Come on now man!

[Veritas]

The fact of the matter is that while K-State might be in the Big XII, they are not in the same league of prestige or success as most other Big XII schools, and if not for their affiliation in the Big XII would be in the same league as a FHSU, PSU, or Emporia.

I'm not much of a fan of our holier-than-thou, inter-state B12 brethren, but this statement lacks a great deal of reality. Sure, no doubt K-State has coasted in the wake of the B12 big boats. But you're saying that if K-State wasn't in the B12 they'd be D2?

Are you serious? You can't be. Come on now man!

First of all, I am indeed a KU fan and a Shocker fan and a graduate of both schools. I think K-State is a joke - similar to a lower tier MOVAL team. Perhaps it is a stretch that they would be D2 as they already have an athletic infrastructure built off of the backs of their Big 8 (XII) members. However, without their long term affiliation in the Big 8 (XII) they probably would be a D2 team.
As noted earlier. WSU and KU have earned their athletic success. K-State hasn't. The ONLY thing going for them is their membership in the Big XII. OH... and they happened to beat the Shox yesterday. Now, let's see when K-State plays the Shox today if a broken clock really is accurate at least twice per day.

[SHOCKvalue]

The fact of the matter is that while K-State might be in the Big XII, they are not in the same league of prestige or success as most other Big XII schools, and if not for their affiliation in the Big XII would be in the same league as a FHSU, PSU, or Emporia.

I'm not much of a fan of our holier-than-thou, inter-state B12 brethren, but this statement lacks a great deal of reality. Sure, no doubt K-State has coasted in the wake of the B12 big boats. But you're saying that if K-State wasn't in the B12 they'd be D2?

Are you serious? You can't be. Come on now man!

First of all, I am indeed a KU fan and a Shocker fan and a graduate of both schools. I think K-State is a joke - similar to a lower tier MOVAL team. Perhaps it is a stretch that they would be D2 as they already have an athletic infrastructure built off of the backs of their Big 8 (XII) members. However, without their long term affiliation in the Big 8 (XII) they probably would be a D2 team.
As noted earlier. WSU and KU have earned their athletic success. K-State hasn't. The ONLY thing going for them is their membership in the Big XII. OH... and they happened to beat the Shox yesterday. Now, let's see when K-State plays the Shox today if a broken clock really is accurate at least twice per day.

Heh...

Somewhere in the phog, a forum is missing its elitist.

Your perspective is not objective in the slightest bit, and borders on the outlandish and irrational. No informed college sports fan, that I personally know, would say anything even remotely close to what is quoted above.

Hate on K-State if you want, as most of us on SN do from time to time, but try to do it within the context of sanity.