Quality of Teams?

[SHOCKvalue]

I'd tend to agree with marty.

Local case in point:

Husker baseball- generally gets the passing lane laid out in front of them from Lincoln to Omaha by the NCAA, with respect to regionals, super regionals, and quality of fellow R & SR participants, yet has posted a 1-6 record in the CWS in their three visits. Makes FSU's lack of success in the CWS look like a dynasty.

[SubGod22]

It's the "Hawaii" thing in football...take a team that played a horribly weak schedule (ranked over 120) but that did well against that weak schedule....and presume that they are more deserving of a BCS bowl game than a two loss team. Even if that two loss team played five Top 25 teams and beat three.

It's "who did you play and who did you beat" . RPI is important. Wins aren't just wins...there is a difficulty factor. You earn your way. Triple back twists off the board earn more points than a cannonball.

To a degree that's true. But as we here know in basketball, it's not always easy or even possible to get certain teams to play you. That's one thing the Valley has had troubles with in the past in basketball is trying to find ways to keep our RPIs as good as possible without getting games against as many good RPI teams as we'd like because they refuse to play. I'm sure there are examples of that in football as well. Not sure if Hawaii falls under that category or not as I don't pay attention to it anyway.

[billybud]

Re OOC..

Most BCS teams do not play many other BCS conference teams in OOC...

Example, FSU played a two game series with Georgia (1-1), a four game series with Auburn (4-0) and a three game series with Florida (2-1)...all of these teams are relatively convenient geographically.

Other than that...it was non BCS teams.

And...the non BCS teams primarily come to your house. Gives a lot of home games...the BCS games are always on return basis so you have to play at their house the next year.

[rrshock]

I disagree. This is a liberal mentality of entitlement instead or earning your way.

Huh? You telling me that a team that didn't even make their conference tournament in Arkansas, earned their way into the NCAAs? They got there because they are in the SEC. Same with the last couple of Big 12 teams that got in. They probably didn't earn their way either. On paper, I'm sure there were teams just as deserving, and maybe even more, but because of what conference they play in, they got a bid.

In no way did they truly earn it.

[CharlieHog]

Please don't use BCS. The Big 10 is a BCS conference and a terrible baseball conference. BCS is just a terrible way to talk about college baseball.

Many teams from quality conferences do play other teams from quality conferences. Arkansas's non-conference schedule next year includes Arizona State, Nebraska, Cal, Washington, and of course Oral Roberts and Missouri State (and maybe Wichita State).

[billybud]

Yes...it is very difficult to schedule home games against major BCS programs if you are a smaller program.

I remember the days when we were the "Road Warriors" of FSU...we had to go on the road to play the big boys...

With No Return...2X to Ohio State, 2X to Michigan, 5X to LSU, 3X to Lincoln, 1X to Michigan State, 3X to Notre Dame,etc...

It is very difficult for a team like Boise State to get big boys out to Idaho.

[SubGod22]

Again, I don't follow college football or baseball all that closely. Not close enough to know all about scheduling. But I do know in basketball it's hard for some teams to even get a one time visit to a BcS school with no return. That makes scheduling much more difficult. Then there are the non BcS teams that can stand on the same ground as many of the BcS teams and still can't get a decent schedule. They have to get very creative. I'm sure to some degree it's the same in football and baseball, but probably not quite as much.

[Shocker85]

As some of you know, for many years Boyd Nation has used the power of computers and exhaustive statistical analysis to rank college baseball teams. Boyd was one of the first to "figure out" the NCAA's RPI formula and make RPI rankings public.

For some time, Boyd has compiled and published his own ranking system called the Iterative Strength Rating (ISR) as a predictor/ranking tool. Frequently, the ISR gives a different picture than the RPI. Included in the ISR rankings are a Strength of (SoS) Schedule ranking as well. You can look here: http://www.boydsworld.com/baseball/isr/ for team and conference ISR rankings.

I discovered this the other day and it is somewhat pertinent to this topic. This season (2008), I noticed that the SoS based upon the ISR is heavily weighted to the West Coast teams. In fact, I believe the highest SoS for any D1 team that is not west of the Rockies is Kansas State at #29. There are a ton of pretty obscure west coast teams with higher SoS than teams from the other (non Pac-10) baseball-strong BCS conferences. A good summary of this can be found in the Conference ISR's here: http://www.boydsworld.com/baseball/isr/confisr.html which show the Pac10, Big West, and WCC with better SoS than the parade of BCS baseball power conferences (B12, ACC, SEC).

My take on this is that the west coast programs do a good job of intermingling their OOC games and pushing each others' SoS higher and at the same time driving the teams to improve. The desire of the ACC, SEC, and B12 teams to AVOID strong OOC play hurts them a great deal when the post-season comes along. They pad the OOC with patsies (mostly at home), which drives up their collective win total, and then beat on each other in conference, which still yields a win in conference and prevents the RPI from dropping, earning them the prime national seeds undeservedly.

Maybe this is BS, but it is a theory.

--'85.

[billybud]

I don't understand basketball scheduling...

A smallish program (although good) like Marquette does have a very broad and varied schedule...I guess being in a 16 team Big East conference helps.

Chaminade..in contrast...played really small programs except for their opponents in the Maui Invitational.

[SubGod22]

Many good Valley programs struggle with this issue in basketball. I know WSU has difficulty getting games from BcS teams unless it's in a tourney. Heck, when we opened Charles Koch Arena our coach sent out invites to just about every D1 school and only one replied. And that was Northern Arizona. KU has turned down a one time game in Lawrence. Others have had difficulty getting solid opponents as well. Even some of the lower level BcS teams won't play no matter where the game is located.

And all this comes to put Valley fans on edge come post season time because of SoS and RPI. We can do everything in our power but because the door has been shut on most of us by most schools in BcS conferences we get punished for putting together the best OOC we can while many of them are rewarded for play very weak OOC games and getting by just because of conference affiliation.

It appears that this is true to some extent in baseball as I don't see how a team that can't make it's own conference tourney gets invited to the NCAAs. And I really doubt that the 6-9 teams in the SEC or the last few teams that got in from the B12 are better than the 2-3 or 4 teams in the MVC or the WAC or some other smaller conferences. But conference affiliation wins out.

[CharlieHog]

I don't understand basketball scheduling...

A smallish program (although good) like Marquette does have a very broad and varied schedule...I guess being in a 16 team Big East conference helps.

Chaminade..in contrast...played really small programs except for their opponents in the Maui Invitational.

You're comparing Marquette and Chaminade?

[SubGod22]

I don't understand basketball scheduling...

A smallish program (although good) like Marquette does have a very broad and varied schedule...I guess being in a 16 team Big East conference helps.

Chaminade..in contrast...played really small programs except for their opponents in the Maui Invitational.

You're comparing Marquette and Chaminade?

That one made me laugh too

[ShockerFever]

Chaminade..in contrast...played really small programs except for their opponents in the Maui Invitational.

Chaminade is also a Division II school.

That um might make a difference..

[billybud]

Oh...I just remember Chaminade beating the #1 ranked team....I'm showing my age, but I've never forgotten Chaminade.

I wouldn't put them on a BCS team schedule either

[shockfan89]

I disagree. This is a liberal mentality of entitlement instead or earning your way.

Huh? You telling me that a team that didn't even make their conference tournament in Arkansas, earned their way into the NCAAs? They got there because they are in the SEC. Same with the last couple of Big 12 teams that got in. They probably didn't earn their way either. On paper, I'm sure there were teams just as deserving, and maybe even more, but because of what conference they play in, they got a bid.

In no way did they truly earn it.

Thanks rrshock. I am not sure why SB disagrees with that? His comment about liberal mentality of entitlement instead of earning your way was exactly my point.

Maybe it was my wording on the NCAA "letting" more non-power conference schools in. What I was meaning to say is don't GIVE a power conference school that finishes 6th - 9th a bid and exclude a 2nd place team from the MVC or WAC.

Charlie - I think Arkansas is the exception with scheduling and does a pretty good job in their non-conference teams. Arkansas just had a down year and really didn't deserve the bid. WSU may get the same benefit next year? To me it is just tough seeing a 9th place team get in and 2nd place teams from smaller conferences passed over. The logic here is they played in a great conference. Great, but teams in the MVC can say they finished a few games back of WSU and they went to a Super. Teams in the WAC can say we finished 2nd to Fresno State and look how good they are. That is the same logic being used to justify the high number of teams from the power conferences.