Shox vs. ORU make up game April 24, 2013

[Veritas]

It puts a smile on my face to again see the last name Brummett associated with a Shocker win
Congrats!

Shox1989, I have alot of respect for your insight.

What do you think is wrong with the current state of Shocker baseball, what direction does the program need to take, and why limited confidence in ADES in hiring the right replacement (if needed)?

[GoShockers89]

Awesome performance from Brummett, gonna be fun to watch him develop the next couple years with a fresh coaching staff.

[shox1989]

It puts a smile on my face to again see the last name Brummett associated with a Shocker win
Congrats!

Shox1989, I have alot of respect for your insight.

What do you think is wrong with the current state of Shocker baseball, what direction does the program need to take, and why limited confidence in ADES in hiring the right replacement (if needed)?

There is no easy answer to the first part of your question. The College baseball landscape has changed a lot since the late 1970s. It has always been hard for northern schools to get to Omaha (the entire big 10 conference hasn't sent a team to Omaha since the mid 1980s), but now it is even harder for non-BCS northern schools. The BCS schools have all invested a lot more into baseball than they have in the past. They all have new facilities and spend a lot more on recruiting baseball players, they have put more of their games on TV. Those are advantages that will be hard for any WSU coach to overcome (and I think the main reason Gene temporarily left for Ou). Many of today's players want to go schools that play in those conferences.

But beyond the BCS schools, even many of the non-BCS schools have invested more in baseball too. For example, WSU used to have one of the best stadiums in the country, now they have the 4th best in the Valley (Cu with TD Ameritrade Park is best, SMS with Hammons field, and then Bradley playing at OBrien field have newer and bigger and better stadiums then WSU). Those 3 schools all use rented facilities but I am not sure that makes much difference to a recruit. Even the other Valley schools have all improved their facilities a lot over the last few years, although they can't come close to WSU.

So the competition for baseball players is greater than ever which means WSU will never be as dominate nationally as it was from 1988 to 1996.

Having said that, I do think WSU can do many things to improve the situation. Regardless of who is coaching, WSU needs to up its very tiny recruiting budget, invest in improving and upgrading the facilities (Ku has a much bigger video board and claims to have much nicer locker rooms and team areas- at least that is what they tell recruits). WSU needs to remove the restrictions placed on the Shocker baseball coaches that require them to get 1/3 of the players from Kansas. WSU probably also needs to try and improve the TV package, but they are probably limited to just adding more games to COX 22.

Now to Gene. I think he has proven that he knows how to get teams to Omaha. NOBODY has had more success in getting a northern non-BCS team to Omaha than Gene. I think he is one of the best college baseball coaches ever. But kids have changed and the bats have changed. I think it is much harder for him to find those hard nosed kids that he likes to recruit. But I also think that as they began to change the bats around 2000 and continue to change them it has made it harder for Gene to recruit the "fast athletes" he likes to recruit. Gene was great at recruiting athletes and then teaching them how to play baseball. That still works to some extent with defense but it doesn't work so well with the newer bats. In the past, with the older bats it was much easier to teach someone how to hit. The old aluminum bats made it much easier to hit. As the bats have changed it has become much harder to take raw athletes and turn them into hitters. Gene never really recruited the big time 5 star players he was always able to find diamonds in the rough and turn them into excellent players. That is just much harder to do today. And because of Gene's style of recruiting the bat changes have affected WSU much more than most schools.

Obviously plans need to be made for transitioning to a new coach. Regardless of how you feel about Gene (and I know most people on this board don't like him) he is no spring chicken and is nearing retirement. I would feel a whole lot better about the situation if the AD and the baseball offices were communicating better. I would love to see a plan where someone is brought in right now and could work with Gene for awhile. I personally would also like to see Brent stay on as pitching coach (I think he is still one of the best pitching coaches around).

I would also like to see Gene kept on staff after he retires from the head coaching position to help raise money and improve athletic facilities for all Shocker sports. Gene is a great salesman and he has proven to be a good fundraiser and has always understood the importance of staying ahead of the Jones' when it comes to athletic facilities even though most of the WSU AD's over the years have resisted investing in upgrades. It would also allow the next head coach to concentrate on recruiting and coaching.

Bottom line is that there needs to be a transition plan of some kind, the lack of one has to be hurting the program. Lack of certainty hurts any business. Recruiting, fundraising etc. has to be hurt by the lack of any plan.

My limited confidence in ADES comes from watching what has happened to the athletic dept. staff since he took over. There have been a lot of problems, many of them discussed on this board. I also have concerns because of his lack of Athletic Dept experience. He was the lobbyist for WSU when he was hired as AD. He has no Athletic Dept experience and lacks many of the connections that someone like a Jim Schaus has. I try to be very supportive of the WSU AD, and I want things to work out, but the current poor communication, internal problems and his lack of experience concern me a lot.

I get the feeling, and I could be wrong, that he may be willing to go "on the cheap". And just try to hire someone to save money. That prospect scares me a lot.

Whoever the next coach is, is going to need a lot of support. It is not going to be easy, and I think people are delusional if they think just hiring a new coach is going to get WSU back to Omaha. The issues are much bigger and deeper than that.

I could say a lot more but those are the main points.

[1972Shocker]

That's a very well thought out post Shox1989. I agree that the landscape of college baseball has changed a lot over the last 15 years or so and I don't think there is any question that it's a tougher chore to make the CWS these days then it was in Gene's heyday. Which I guess is to say a lot of Gene's success had to do with timing. although Gene deserves a lot of credit for building a program from scratch.

However, the bottom line is that Gene and Brent poisoned the pond when they accepted the OU job and said they could no longer win at Wichita State. Big mistake IMHO to have taken them back at that time. I'm sure competing coaches are not shy about reminding recruits about those comments to this day.

I agree that Brent's a very good pitching coach, but he isn't the only one.

It is simply time for new blood. There is no question we are not getting our money's worth out of this staff and haven't for several years now. The way to approach this wisely from a financial standpoint is to use a contract that has a reasonable, but not excessive base salary, significant performance incentives and reasonable buyout provisions after 4 or 5 years.

I'm not sure if keeping Gene on staff in some capacity is a good idea or not. While I assume he has more than a few strong supporters among the big donor base he also has more than a few big donors who do not care for him.

[ShockTalk]

For discussion purpose, I'd like to go through each of your paragraphs @shox1989:. Not to just disagree, because you bring up valid points, but to see where the solution to problems may lie.

1) Very true statements and I believe very few here would disagree with most all of the points. Your next to last statement is true, however, I also believe (just gut feeling) that Gene and staff didn't want to have to work at it as hard either in their twilight years of coaching. The last statement is true with any sport. I know basketball is not baseball, however, one or two top flight recruits can carry carry a basketball team. Nevertheless, there are a fair number of non-BCS schools that are now competing with the "big boys" on the "Big Stage", primarily due to smart (and very diligent) recruiting, team chemistry, and quality coaching.

2) There is no substitute for 4,000 entergetic fans in a quality, on campus style, ball diamond. A semi-pro or pro stadium that seats thousands and thousands, but attracts almost no one, cannot be that thrilling for players.

3) A true sentence.

4) So, when talking about budgets, how does WSU stack up when you combine coaching salaries and recruiting budgets, particularly with other non-BCS programs? How does it compare to KU or K St? Due to not being a big spending BCS school, where does a bigger recruiting budget come from when paying high salaries? How common are indoor practice facilities like WSU's? Totally agree on the 1/3 requirement. We are probably locked into Cox 22, but a better package won't come around without better performance on the field.

5) It sounds like all of Gene's recruiting success is now his--tor--y. What and how he did it is now over and cannot be duplicated today, from your statements. So, he needs to change or make changes. Have we seen any of that? Do the new bats make it a lot more difficult to bunt? Fast, raw baseball athletes might be able to progress to better overall hitters doing more of that.

6, 7, 8) Most all of this depends on Gene. What he is willing to do and, if he is willing to do some of it, how much of a limited budget is he going to demand for himself will dictate what all can be done.

9, 10) Gene can be WSU's best friend or worst enemy here. He can help ADES make a smooth transition or plain muck it up. If ADES feels forced to do something at the end of this year to stop the bleeding and Gene is unwilling to "help", we can only afford so much. This is why many believe ADES will not pull the trigger at this time. With Gene's help, I don't see ADES going on the cheap. Actually, I don't see him doing that in any circumstance.

11) Totally agree. I also believe a new staff will get that support from fans. Frankly, I think a fair number are put off by the overall team performance when compared to the salaries of the staff. It's not fair to the players, it's just the way it is. WSU is not getting anything close to what it's paying for. I, for one, am not complaining about not getting back to Omaha. I'm complaining about this program losing all its MoJo due to a Krusty old f*rt, who seems to be unwilling to look to the program's future and the tarnishing of all that he had built..... IMHO.

[Cdizzle]

I'm so confused right now. Generally, if the team lost 6-5 in 12 innings at the #24 ranked team and then turned around and, using the 'bottom' of the pitching staff, won a game they should win at home 8-0, I would feel pretty good. But it's HOW we lost that 12 inning game that bothers me. And, generally, if WSU is in 1st place in the league after 4 weekends, I'm pretty pleased. But I'm just not sure how to feel about that given that the OOC record is below .500. I just don't know anymore. Please reel off 12 straight and make me a believer again. Or lose 12 straight and put me out of my misery.

[Veritas]

Shox1989 brings up some great points. Most know I'm a Gene supporter and pretty angry with ADES in not helping the program by helping Gene.
-- Recruiting: Why does WSU have to recruit 1/3 of their players from Kansas??? Why isn't the baseball program (in relative terms) allowed a higher recruting budget in order to compete on a national level. They won the CWS for goodness sake and is one of the most successful programs in the past 30 years in the country. Are the WSU facilities 2nd or 3rd best in the state of Kansas? If so, that's the fault of ADES; not Gene.
-- Transition: I've often said that ADES and Gene should have a serious discussion about replacing ACJT and replacing him with an Associate HC that allows this program to transition smoothly in the coming years

It's my baseless though instinctive belief that ADES is allowing the program to suffer in order to fire Gene, save the $500k annual salary, and take the program down a notch or two.
In contrast, ADES should recommit to the baseball program, enhance the recruiting budget, get rid of the 1/3 Kansas rule (Why does that exist anyway).

Gene might be old and does stupid things (like the failure to bunt against ORU which had me pretty riled up), but he built this program from nothing because he's a pretty danged good coach, and he has had AD(s) that supported him.

IMO, ADES is setting the guy and the program up for failure.

[GoShockers89]

Anyone with sympathy for Gene is doing an excellent ostrich impersonation.

Clearly, we are set up for failure when our head coach makes $550,000 (top 15 type salary) and his head coaches make six figures (our pitching coach makes almost as much as UNC's head coach). The athletic department was truly out to get him when they ignored HUMILIATING publicly reported off-field escapades by Gene and renewed his contract. He could have very easily been fired for cause and had his legacy tossed into the garbage heap next to Rusty Eck's. He was spared that and rewarded with millions.

The recruiting budget complaint is so lulzy. Gene has become the laziest coach in the MVC when it comes to recruiting. What would an increased budget do for him? He'd fly first class with it, no doubt, but we'd still suck. He has done less with more than any coach in the country over the last 5 years. And if it REALLY is such a problem (I do not buy this), then he could always take a 20% pay cut and have the top recruiting budget in the region. Has he done that? lolololol not in a million f**king years.

I don't like arguing with fellow Shocker fans but this debate has been hashed out OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER on here for about three years and Team B has clearly lost. And I was a member of Gene Team B until 2011 or so. All that's left now are excuses and apathy, and responsibility for that rests the same place the buck stops- the head coach for the program. Gene did legendary work for 20-25 years but he should be ashamed of his performance for the last 5.

The last of the old farts who are emotionally attached to Gene are finally coming around or dying. The rest need to join them (on changing their minds, not dying :) )

[Veritas]

I understand your views GoShockers89, but what about the questions I asked:
-- Why does he have to recruit 1/3 of the players from the state of Kansas (a few bad years with great athletes signing MLB contracts out of HS, and he's screwed). Gene's never been one in the past to over-recruit and cut players later.

-- Increased budget doesn't mean flying FC. It could simply mean taking a plane with a coach seat to Texas in contrast to driving 800 miles
-- Why has ADES been so silent on the doward spiral of the program for the past 3 years? 5 years ago, a super regional, and then the bottom dropped out after some draft issues crippled the program.

From a comprehensive point of view, the AD should do what he can to protect the legacy of the program and its coach and compete. I do like your idea about the paycut and re-investing some of that salary into the program. It'd be good for all involved.

By the way, I'm not that old, just appreciative of of the job GS has done for the WSU baseball program. Additionally, Ive never said I supported the firing of HCGS though he and his coaching staff do pi$$ me off from time to time.

[1972Shocker]

If ADES was out to get Gene why did he agree to extend Gene's existing contract for 5 years in 2009 with no significant changes or with an eye towards the obvious fact that Gene was coming to the end of his career. I will chalk that one up to ADES inexperience and probably fear of taking on Gene.

The 1/3rd from Kansas provisions was added in 1994 during the Bill Belknap/Eugene Hughes regime. Not sure the reasons for that. I assume financial considerations in funding in-state vs out-of-state tuition were probably a factor, if not the primary factor. If this is a big problem there has been ample opportunity for Gene to request that his be changed or renegotiated.

Maybe the lack of communication should all be laid at the feet of ADES. I do not really know and I have access to pretty much zero inside information. OTOH, just observing the personalities and egos involved this could just as easily be due to Gene from where I sit. It does take at least two to communicate. Could be there has been communication but one side or the other (or both) simply are not happy with what has been communicated.

[GoShockers89]

I understand your views GoShockers89, but what about the questions I asked:
-- Why does he have to recruit 1/3 of the players from the state of Kansas (a few bad years with great athletes signing MLB contracts out of HS, and he's screwed). Gene's never been one in the past to over-recruit and cut players later.

This is not entirely correct. We had a very disgruntled relative of a player who was asked to leave because of over-recruiting on this board 2-3 years ago. He may not do it as egregiously as some other coaches, but he has done it.

-- Increased budget doesn't mean flying FC. It could simply mean taking a plane with a coach seat to Texas in contrast to driving 800 miles
-- Why has ADES been so silent on the doward spiral of the program for the past 3 years? 5 years ago, a super regional, and then the bottom dropped out after some draft issues crippled the program.

This is such a weird complaint. I'm no ADES cheerleader, but what is he really supposed to do? The idea of him coming and gently holding senile Gene's shaking hands and enlightening him that he needs to appoint a successor as associate head coach is ludicrous. Gene would tell him to kiss his ass and will never fire Jim Thomas or Kemnitz. HCGS never really got along with any of our AD's (in the 80s and 90s that was largely due to incompetence or indifference in the AD office, now that is reversed) and never let them tell him what to do. He wouldn't start now. If a coach is failing, it is not the responsibility of the AD to come in and micromanage that sport. They lack the expertise and it is not their job.

ETA: You can't seriously believe that (1) Gene has driven 800 miles to see a recruit any time in the last decade; and (2) we can't afford a $300 plane ticket to go see anyone. It hasn't been that bad in 25 years.

By the way, I'm not that old, just appreciative of of the job GS has done for the WSU baseball program. Additionally, Ive never said I supported the firing of HCGS though he and his coaching staff do pi$$ me off from time to time.

I understand, I think we are all just very frustrated. We are all good fans. Nobody who isn't a nut about Shocker baseball would even bother posting here when we're sporting a team with an RPI hovering around 175.