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Decision to retain Todd Butler for a 6th year: Vote with your wallet Shocker fans

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  • Decision to retain Todd Butler for a 6th year: Vote with your wallet Shocker fans

    I really did not want to create this thread. What I'm about to say has the potential to hurt a lot of feelings but sadly, it must be done. The decision to maintain failing coach Todd Butler for an amazing sixth year must not be met with apathy. I'm asking all Shocker fans who care about Shocker Nation to immediately withdraw all support from the baseball program. Take those funds that are normally earmarked for baseball and donate that same amount to one of the other successful programs: golf, tennis, softball, volleyball, track, etc.



    It is clear that Darron Boatright is as overmatched as his picture would imply. I could not in a thousand years understand how this person would make the decision to keep failing coach Butler after what turned out to be the worst 5 years of Shocker baseball in the modern era. We'll have to chalk it up to stubbornness, emotion, dereliction, incompetence, or all of the above.

    But what if it was a financial decision you ask? Okay, so out of a $30M athletic budget, there wasn't $1 million lying around to fund a coaching replacement in the 2nd most important sport in our program? I'm calling B.S. And if it was a financial issue, then the athletic director is directly responsible for not managing the fund raising activities appropriately. Maintaining winning coaches in basketball and baseball is THE most important job of the WSU AD - end of story. If there is EVER a shortage of funds that could affect the success of either sports, you better start making phone calls with the quickness.

    This is the saddest day in the history of our storied baseball program. We now need a new coach and perhaps a new AD as well. This message must reach The Bardo whom I know will make the right decision. In the meantime we must vote with our dollars and our feet. We need that baseball stadium totally empty of funds and people next year. Our storied history and proud tradition DEMANDS that we act immediately and forcefully. There cannot be a year seven...


    T


    ...

  • #2
    If you aren't big on the idea of donating to other sports, it could be productive to continue to donate to the baseball program, but with stipulations. Something along the lines of: Dear Office of the Athletic Director, I cannot in good faith continue to support the kind of decision-making which I feel is harming the program I love. Therefore, I would like to offer this promissory note in the amount of $$$$$.00 in lieu of actual funds. The day a new coach is hired, funds matching the promised amount will be expedited to your office.


    T


    ...

    Comment


    • shockfan89_
      shockfan89_ commented
      Editing a comment
      I will setup an escrow account and agree to receive donations in lieu of season ticket purchases and donations to the Baseball program. This money will then be donated to the baseball program to use for the new coaches salary or to buyout year 7 of the contract if a change is made.

  • #3
    Cold, I think you should return to whatever you were doing with your free time before you came back here.

    Calling for Darron to be ousted is asinine. And there are no feelings hurt at all. What it really does is make your argument to remove HCTB less credible.

    I have no problem with your idea. I don't think it will amount to a hill of beans, but I respect the effort and perhaps I'll be wrong.

    But saying Darron is overmatched? Come on, you're smarter than that.

    Comment


  • #4
    Why all this talk about baseball? Don't you guys know it's Navy Football season now!

    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
    Isaac Asimov

    Comment


    • Cdizzle
      Cdizzle commented
      Editing a comment
      It wouldn't be if we had a relevant baseball team...

  • #5
    Has there been an official announcement or are we taking their silence as an endorsement?

    Comment


    • #6
      Actually all this will do is hurt basketball. Basketball pays for everything. So whatever money they have coming in for baseball dwindles, then they will have to divert money that was earmarked for basketball.

      Comment


      • 1972Shocker
        1972Shocker commented
        Editing a comment
        And, unfortunately that appears to have already been happening to a significant degree in recent years so that well is already drained to pretty low levels.**

        Who knows how much of the remaining "baseball" support is corporate purchases being made to secure and retain prime seating for men's basketball but it might make up a significant component of what's left.
        Last edited by 1972Shocker; 3 weeks ago.

    • #7
      I would argue we need to support Shocker athletics through the good and the bad. If a coach/team is going to fail, it will happen. No need to make the failure greater by not supporting all Shocker athletics. It would be much easier attracting a new coach by showing that our support is still good, just imagine what you could accomplish by making the program better. IMHO

      Comment


      • #8
        Jokes on you Cold, people have already quit donating and caring about Butler and our baseball program. There is nothing left to lose which is why Butler stays another year. We are already at the bottom so why spend the money to can him?

        Comment


        • shockfan89_
          shockfan89_ commented
          Editing a comment
          SB is right, I misread his chart. How can you say 500 increase in season ticket sales is overly optimistic? Season ticket sales have declined 1,400 since 2015. Surely we can get back to that level which would be the same as 2010.

          If we assume an increase of 1,000, not 2,000, the math would be the same or better just a little harder to follow:

          Season ticket increase of 1,000 (back to 2013 level)
          1000 single game ticket sales (back to 2011 and 2015 levels)

          1,000 x $200 = 200,000
          1,000 x $8 ticket x 30 home games = 240,000

          vs the continued trend of last year (not even factoring in a drop off if we aren't as good next year)

          Season ticket decline from 2017 to 2018: -250 x $200 = ($50,000)
          Single game attendance decline from 2017 to 2018: -150 x $8 x 32 home games = ($38,500)

          That's a delta of $528,500 per year not including concessions. Can we afford not to make a change?
          Last edited by shockfan89_; 3 weeks ago.

        • SB Shock
          SB Shock commented
          Editing a comment
          Few reasons why I think 500 is optimistic

          1. Even in the best of times you didn't see that much of increase from year to year.

          2. Attending baseball is a time commitment, people who have walked away from season tickets have now filled that time with other things or other priorities. The decline was slow as people found there was less and less entertainment value in being season ticket holders and likewise it I think it will take success on the field (and probably hosting a regional) to bring people back.

          3. The loyal fan base is an older, declining bunch, and with the lack of success the younger generations don't really know anything about what Shocker baseball could be like.

          Now I will grant you if they made the right hire (Hooper, Wedge, DBU coach), then maybe that would generate enough excitement or enthusiasm where the +500 or even +1500 materialized. But what truly are the odds that the AD would be able to make that type of hire?

          I think the most likely scenario is the WSU AD would be hiring a mid-major coach or some unknown assistant and under that scenario at this point, the better risk is staying the course and seeing if Butler can take the program to the next step or not. If you make the move at this late date with a unknown hire, you are 3 to 4 years away again.

        • shockfan89_
          shockfan89_ commented
          Editing a comment
          I agree with you 100% given your additional information. My scenario is based on the AD being smart enough now not to follow one bad hire with an absolutely stupid hire. My scenario was contingent on a hire from the Shocker baseball family.

          I probably should have made that clear but the point of my post is that sometimes doing nothing is more costly, even if on the surface doing nothing appears to be the cheapest option.

          There are multiple scenarios where a buyout at this point could be financially advantageous. I have presented two fairly simple ones (incentive based contract with restructured assistant salaries, and attendance/excitement reversal). I'm just throwing additional fuel on the fire that any competent, engaged AD has options even given the financial constraints.
          Last edited by shockfan89_; 3 weeks ago.

      • #9
        Originally posted by vancedave56 View Post
        I would argue we need to support Shocker athletics through the good and the bad. If a coach/team is going to fail, it will happen. No need to make the failure greater by not supporting all Shocker athletics. It would be much easier attracting a new coach by showing that our support is still good, just imagine what you could accomplish by making the program better. IMHO
        While I agree with the premise here, it is impossible to actually "fail" if the one doing the failing continues to receive carte blanche and has zero accountability. Carte blanche is exactly what HCTB has received since scraping dirt on the program Stevenson crashed. I can't believe he would be retained for a 6th year. How are things possibly going to be any better than this season's potential? They had some really good players, players who will be leaving. I don't think HCTB is the man for the job. Disappointed that Boatright won't pull the trigger.

        Comment


        • #10
          FYI if nothing changes our lineup isn't as dire as people seem to think it will be, especially defensively.

          Even with nothing new (and there will be new kids to make an impact) you're probably looking at Kocis at 3rd (Bohm ran hot and cold here) Ritter and Boyer in the middle and O'Brien/Wallace/Gibson at 1st. Outfield you've got Young, Jackson, DeBacker, Katzfey, Cadena who've all shown ability. Defensively we're fine.

          Offensively? Different story to an extent. Ross Cadena is a player. He's getting in the lineup and he'll have a solid if not great year. Let's say he catches. Kocis at 3rd not sure. Boyer and Ritter are who they are. We've got pop and a lot of potential at 1st. Outfield is a question. If Cadena catches none of the other 4 showed much at the plate. I don't expect Dugas to return but that would help power for sure. DH is fine as one of Gibby or Wallace (whoever doesn't play 1st) can hit. All is not dire.

          How about pitching? No doubt some questions. Much like this year we lack a Friday stud. Eddy and Davis should be ok. Ryan Stuempfig redshirted due to high school injury and looks dynamite. I'm expecting a great year from the rising redshirt freshman. We are losing a lot of our depth, but we've seen potential and bright spots from Snavely, Lungwitz, Barnhouse should be healthy again and if he returns (50-50 at best I think) Killgore. Lindemann and Wallace but especially Segal (who has big league breaking stuff but is struggling with control mightily) showed a lot of upside. Minor and Allen need to improve.

          I'm not saying there are 3-4 AAs there but there are a lot of innings returning at most every position. Sure we'll miss Bohm and Grey. There's also several really talented guys that could become stars.

          Cadena is a stud. Wallace and Gibby can really hit. Kocis was buried behind Bohm and has a ton of upside. Lindemann, Wallace and Barnhouse all throw 94+. Segal has incredible breaking stuff. Eddy and Davis might not have big league stuff, but they both can be really good Saturday guys. And I'm telling you RS could be great.

          And if by chance we get Dugas and Killgore back (and I don't think we will but there's a chance) that's 2 more guys that have helped, and both have tons of upside.

          Anyway, it's not like a total rebuild.

          Comment


          • shockfan89_
            shockfan89_ commented
            Editing a comment
            So you're saying if everything goes towards the upside we could be almost as good as 7th or 8th in the conference next year?

            Nobody is saying next year will be a complete rebuild, the negative (realistic) group is saying "This was supposed to be our year". Pitching made a huge improvement (non-conference), the AAs were here, 1st round draft picks, JRs and SRs at all positions. And the results were 9-14 in a really good conference and we finished the year playing under .500 for the second half of the year.

            There is just not a lot to be optimistic about given the past 5 years. You will counter and say how can you not be optimistic, this is the 1st year HCTB has had a winning record and we are going in the right direction. I can see that, but I think that is picking the one positive and ignoring all the reality. This team was setup to host a Regional and we didn't even make one.

            I think realistically, if we play the same crappy non-conference schedule next year (162 SoS), we would lose 5 more games than this year. That puts us at 30-27 overall. I think we could do a little better in the conference (only because, is it really possible to do worse than this year). Either way we are sitting 30-27 or 32-25 with an RPI in the high 50s range again.
            Last edited by shockfan89_; 3 weeks ago.

          • 1972Shocker
            1972Shocker commented
            Editing a comment
            If Luke Ritter moves on which, along with Codi Heuer and Keylan Killgore, is a possibility then we have a hole at 2B. If that happens I wonder if you might not want to look at Ross Cadena at 2B and let Noah Croft handle the primary catching duties. Worked fairly well for Craig Biggio.

            This is probably a subject for a whole new thread but might best wait until the dust clears on the MLB draft.
            Last edited by 1972Shocker; 3 weeks ago.

        • #11
          Cold has a point.

          How the hell do you show displeasure for a failing program? If you continue to support it, then the athletic dept assumes things are fine. I mean that’s all they care about is money now.

          But does it all even matter anymore? They don’t give two shits about baseball anymore. That’s become obvious. And you have an athletic director that can’t even make a statement about it as if there’s nothing wrong. I think that’s the most disturbing thing. Boatright doesn’t communicate well at all, just like his predicessor. What are the goals or expectations of baseball? Do we know anymore? Or more importantly, does anyone care? Well, obviously not since they are a retaining a coach that doesn’t win, finishes in the bottom of the conference, and has NEVER made the postseason. But he is nice. (Well to kids 6 feet or taller)

          We are Evansville Basketball.

          Well done, Mr. Boatright.
          Deuces Valley.
          ... No really, deuces.
          ________________
          "Enjoy the ride."

          - a smart man

          Comment


          • #12
            Originally posted by WuDrWu View Post
            FYI if nothing changes our lineup isn't as dire as people seem to think it will be, especially defensively.

            Even with nothing new (and there will be new kids to make an impact) you're probably looking at Kocis at 3rd (Bohm ran hot and cold here) Ritter and Boyer in the middle and O'Brien/Wallace/Gibson at 1st. Outfield you've got Young, Jackson, DeBacker, Katzfey, Cadena who've all shown ability. Defensively we're fine.

            Offensively? Different story to an extent. Ross Cadena is a player. He's getting in the lineup and he'll have a solid if not great year. Let's say he catches. Kocis at 3rd not sure. Boyer and Ritter are who they are. We've got pop and a lot of potential at 1st. Outfield is a question. If Cadena catches none of the other 4 showed much at the plate. I don't expect Dugas to return but that would help power for sure. DH is fine as one of Gibby or Wallace (whoever doesn't play 1st) can hit. All is not dire.

            How about pitching? No doubt some questions. Much like this year we lack a Friday stud. Eddy and Davis should be ok. Ryan Stuempfig redshirted due to high school injury and looks dynamite. I'm expecting a great year from the rising redshirt freshman. We are losing a lot of our depth, but we've seen potential and bright spots from Snavely, Lungwitz, Barnhouse should be healthy again and if he returns (50-50 at best I think) Killgore. Lindemann and Wallace but especially Segal (who has big league breaking stuff but is struggling with control mightily) showed a lot of upside. Minor and Allen need to improve.

            I'm not saying there are 3-4 AAs there but there are a lot of innings returning at most every position. Sure we'll miss Bohm and Grey. There's also several really talented guys that could become stars.

            Cadena is a stud. Wallace and Gibby can really hit. Kocis was buried behind Bohm and has a ton of upside. Lindemann, Wallace and Barnhouse all throw 94+. Segal has incredible breaking stuff. Eddy and Davis might not have big league stuff, but they both can be really good Saturday guys. And I'm telling you RS could be great.

            And if by chance we get Dugas and Killgore back (and I don't think we will but there's a chance) that's 2 more guys that have helped, and both have tons of upside.

            Anyway, it's not like a total rebuild.
            lol, I just can’t.

            So what’s the goal for next year? In year 6?

            30 wins? 6th place in the AAC?

            That sounds exciting!
            Deuces Valley.
            ... No really, deuces.
            ________________
            "Enjoy the ride."

            - a smart man

            Comment


            • #13
              Some have mentioned that sending a message to baseball ultimately hurts basketball. I say don't let fear influence your thought process. Being quiet and "supportive" is what rewarded us with a year six of Butler Ball. If you call yourself baseball fans then let's discuss baseball. Nothing is going to derail the basketball program (outside of something spectacularly scandalous).

              The very act of creating this thread could be construed as superfluous because as others have pointed out, fans have already been voting with their wallets - and they continue to vote with every successive display of incompetence. Next season will be the lowest turnstile count in ages. Having stalwart baseball fans (you included Doc) contact the AD with a message that funds will be held until a change is made, is the right thing to do, strategically. Anybody interested in continuing the failing Todd Butler experiment is acting on faith and faith does not belong anywhere near critical business decisions. The probability of Butler turning his career around at WSU is nearly zero. He's played his entire hand. It would take a miracle. Shocker fans, do you feel comfortable knowing that the fate of the WSU baseball program is dependent upon a miracle?

              A final note:

              ADES and ADDB are very nice guys. They are both the product of a massive vacuum that was created when ADJS left followed by the lack of a rigorous national search for a legitimate replacement. Our administrators conducted the equivalent of a drawing for straws as to who would follow Jim's lead. I guess this is a testament to the remarkable job Jim did (hiring Gregg) as they thought we could skate by with a pencil-pusher in his place. Well we've rolled the dice twice and seem to have lucked out... to an extent. The Todd Butler hiring (and lack of firing) could be Exhibit #1 as to how it hasn't.

              The longer we wait to replace Butler, the lower the probability will be that we can resurrect the now sleeping giant that is the Wichita State baseball program; the longer we wait to hire a legitimate leader in the athletic department, the higher the probability will be that we witness more feckless, head-scratching decisions.




              It would be my greatest nightmare having to lean on this guy for HCGM's replacement.


              T


              ...

              Comment


              • #14
                Originally posted by C0|dB|00ded View Post
                Some have mentioned that sending a message to baseball ultimately hurts basketball. I say don't let fear influence your thought process. Being quiet and "supportive" is what rewarded us with a year six of Butler Ball. If you call yourself baseball fans then let's discuss baseball. Nothing is going to derail the basketball program (outside of something spectacularly scandalous).

                The very act of creating this thread could be construed as superfluous because as others have pointed out, fans have already been voting with their wallets - and they continue to vote with every successive display of incompetence. Next season will be the lowest turnstile count in ages. Having stalwart baseball fans (you included Doc) contact the AD with a message that funds will be held until a change is made, is the right thing to do, strategically. Anybody interested in continuing the failing Todd Butler experiment is acting on faith and faith does not belong anywhere near critical business decisions. The probability of Butler turning his career around at WSU is nearly zero. He's played his entire hand. It would take a miracle. Shocker fans, do you feel comfortable knowing that the fate of the WSU baseball program is dependent upon a miracle?

                A final note:

                ADES and ADDB are very nice guys. They are both the product of a massive vacuum that was created when ADJS left followed by the lack of a rigorous national search for a legitimate replacement. Our administrators conducted the equivalent of a drawing for straws as to who would follow Jim's lead. I guess this is a testament to the remarkable job Jim did (hiring Gregg) as they thought we could skate by with a pencil-pusher in his place. Well we've rolled the dice twice and seem to have lucked out... to an extent. The Todd Butler hiring (and lack of firing) could be Exhibit #1 as to how it hasn't.

                The longer we wait to replace Butler, the lower the probability will be that we can resurrect the now sleeping giant that is the Wichita State baseball program; the longer we wait to hire a legitimate leader in the athletic department, the higher the probability will be that we witness more feckless, head-scratching decisions.




                It would be my greatest nightmare having to lean on this guy for HCGM's replacement.


                T


                ...
                lol It’s so scary, it’s funny.
                Deuces Valley.
                ... No really, deuces.
                ________________
                "Enjoy the ride."

                - a smart man

                Comment


                • #15
                  Well, back when Sexton was AD and everyone was calling for his head because of the baseball situation, I said, and was roundly scoffed at and chastised for noting that the hire wasn't Sexton's but Boatright's. Now, as he should have been, Sexton was held to account for the performance of the program, but nothing was or is going to change without a change in leadership within the athletic department. And I am not calling for Boatright's head, just stating an opinion. This being said, I will support all of our programs, including baseball.

                  I am hopeful that next season will see the team return to the NCAAs. Each season grants us new hope.

                  Go Shocks!
                  “Losers Average Losers.” ― Paul Tudor Jones

                  Comment

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