Big Ten Considering Removal of Penn State?

[SubGod22]

Saw it being discussed here. I haven't read the linked piece yet but some interesting quotes were brought up in the post. Personally, I think PSU should get the Death Penalty for a few years, but I doubt the NCAA will do that. The Big Ten could boot them from the conference and make them go Independent. I don't think any other conference would touch them after all that has happened. But I don't think they'll get the boot either. Will be interesting to see what the NCAA and the Big Ten choose to do though.

[_kai_]

I just don't see how the NCAA doesn't penalize the university. The fact that at nearly every level of administration, someone knew about this (President, AD, Football Coach) I don't see how this can't be penalized. If the NCAA doesn't do anything, I see some very interesting arguments to when other schools get penalized for other things. If some school gets docked scholarships for giving a kid cream cheese on a bagel and PSU gets off with nothing. The first thing I'd say is "So we provide cream cheese to a recruit, but PSU can ignore LAWS, and get off with nothing?"

What a weird world we live in.

[SubGod22]

Does the NCAA ever makes sense? Ok, sometimes they do, but often times not so much. The case I've seen others make about the NCAA not doing anything is that the NCAA is supposed to punish schools that get a competitive advantage for doing things. Some argue that this is simply a legal thing that will be handled by the authorities and the DOE. However, others have argued that by not reporting Sandusky and covering it all up that they gained a competitive advantage by avoiding the massively negative press that would have come along with it. Especially after about 15 years of knowledge. And there was an obviously lack of institutional control going on. And even ignoring the Sandusky stuff, there have been numerous reports where players weren't disciplined during the season because JoePa told them not to. Things were handled in the offseason or something like that. I haven't read as much into those accusations from other PSU administrators/secretaries but they've been mentioned by a number of posters on that site.


PSU should get a multi year Death Penalty and all current players are free to transfer with no loss of eligibility. Upon their return, there should be some sort of post-season ban for x number of years as well as scholarship limits.

[_kai_]

I totally agree with that punishment. I also agree that by not reporting the crime, they in turned gave themselves a competitive advantage over those years. As awful as a human being Sandusky was, he obviously was a good LB coach, PSU was Line Backer U. That is a competitive advantage.

IMO, the NCAA is going to take a massive hit to their PR if they don't do something about this.

[Dave Stalwart]

PSU should get a multi year Death Penalty and all current players are free to transfer with no loss of eligibility. Upon their return, there should be some sort of post-season ban for x number of years as well as scholarship limits.

All Penn State players are forced to transfer to WSU and the season begins effective immediately, and will be played in the Big Ten.

[_kai_]

All Penn State players are forced to transfer to WSU and the season begins effective immediately, and will be played in the Big Ten.

Creative, effective, I like it.

[WuDrWu]

My understanding of the situation is that there is very little in the bylaws that would allow the NCAA to take action that wouldn't ultimately be reversed, but I am certainly no expert. That's just what I heard really smart people that work with the NCAA say in a discussion last week.

There may however be some folks going to jail, and it's about a 100% certainty that Penn State and all the athletic subsidiaries are going to be hit with about a trillion dollars in punitive claims.

[Kung Wu]

I just don't see how the NCAA doesn't penalize the university. The fact that at nearly every level of administration, someone knew about this (President, AD, Football Coach) I don't see how this can't be penalized. If the NCAA doesn't do anything, I see some very interesting arguments to when other schools get penalized for other things. If some school gets docked scholarships for giving a kid cream cheese on a bagel and PSU gets off with nothing. The first thing I'd say is "So we provide cream cheese to a recruit, but PSU can ignore LAWS, and get off with nothing?"

What a weird world we live in.

To me, this is like saying we need to put the high-school senior in detention for murdering a classmate over the summer, before he gets life in jail.

1) The school is going to be punished by the legal system beyond all recognition,
2) the football team's organization will be replaced from top to bottom,
3) the athletic department will go through complete reorganization,
4) the administration has already gone through complete reorganization.

Those things are in and of themselves so severe, that a death penalty is laughable.

By instituting a one year ban you are going to:

1) punish administrators that weren't there or part of the athletics department in any way shape or form (every darn one of those guys will be replaced),

2) punish a football coaching staff that had absolutely nothing to do with any of the crimes committed, following cover-up, etc,

3) punish a set of college football players that had absolutely nothing to do with any of the crimes committed, following cover-up, etc.

Since the administration, football program, and athletic department are going to be completely replaced by those that had nothing to do with it -- what does it serve to institute a simple ban? Nothing. All the conspirators (bad word but I'm lazy) involved got much, much worse than a ban from a sport from a year (thank God).

I think Penn State's reputation has already taken a hit far, far worse than any single year ban could ever hope to mete out. I think their recruiting will be awful. I think their program will be in a shambles. I think the morale of their players (which weren't involved in any way shape or form) will be horrendous.

Does preventing a bunch of innocent seniors from playing their final season of the sport they have spent their entire lives working hard at, really help anything at all? Not a single person involved in the entire situation will get punished AT ALL for doing that. Only innocent people will.

[_kai_]

To me, this is like saying we need to put the high-school senior in detention for murdering a classmate over the summer, before he gets life in jail.

1) The school is going to be punished by the legal system beyond all recognition,
2) the football team's organization will be replaced from top to bottom,
3) the athletic department will go through complete reorganization,
4) the administration has already gone through complete reorganization.

Those things are in and of themselves so severe, that a death penalty is laughable.

By instituting a one year ban you are going to:

1) punish administrators that weren't there or part of the athletics department in any way shape or form (every darn one of those guys will be replaced),

2) punish a football coaching staff that had absolutely nothing to do with any of the crimes committed, following cover-up, etc,

3) punish a set of college football players that had absolutely nothing to do with any of the crimes committed, following cover-up, etc.

Since the administration, football program, and athletic department are going to be completely replaced by those that had nothing to do with it -- what does it serve to institute a simple ban? Nothing. All the conspirators (bad word but I'm lazy) involved got much, much worse than a ban from a sport from a year (thank God).

I think Penn State's reputation has already taken a hit far, far worse than any single year ban could ever hope to mete out. I think their recruiting will be awful. I think their program will be in a shambles. I think the morale of their players (which weren't involved in any way shape or form) will be horrendous.

Does preventing a bunch of innocent seniors from playing their final season of the sport they have spent their entire lives working hard at, really help anything at all? Not a single person involved in the entire situation will get punished AT ALL for doing that. Only innocent people will.

And my single argument to make against that is: So coaches can have sex with boys in a shower, and a school is fine, as long as it happened a few years ago, and the legal system handled it?

It would truly be one thing if it was an isolated incident, that people at the institution had no knowledge of. But it's documented that people in every level of the UNIVERSITY, not just the AD, had knowledge of it, and nothing happened. That is a huge lack of institutional control.

I think it's laughable that schools will get penalized for giving a recruit a cheeseburger, but you can violate children on a campus, and nothing happens at the NCAA level.

The University and the football program must pay retroactively for their increased ability to play games for the years that this story was brushed under the rug. I guarantee you that Penn State would not be where they wer at in football the day this story broke, if they would have penalized Sandusky at the time. And that's not even the point, imo. The point is that this kind of behavior is not acceptable by any school who is under the NCAA administration.

[SubGod22]

Doesn't mean a ton in the grand scheme of things, but PSU is taking down the Paterno statue this weekend.

Also interesting

Paterno's alma mater, Brown University, removed Paterno's name from its annual award given to the school's top freshman athlete and coaching position and is weighing whether to take the Paterno out of its athletic hall of fame. Paterno graduated from Brown in 1950.

[1972Shocker]

I can understand Kung Wu's point of view that a lot of innocent people would be hurt by giving the Penn State program the heave-ho. But that's just the things may have to fly.

Lack of institutional control always seems to be a big deal with the NCAA. But with Penn State it may have been worse than lack of institutional control. Apparently there was a deliberate effort to shield the Penn State football program from any accountability for rules, ethics, standards and just plain common decency that one would expect from just about anyone in our society, let alone a supposed icon of integrity. Penn State did not lack institutional control. They exercised institutional control about as poorly as one could do it.

[ShockBand]

Let's also think about the reason programs get to where it is more important to protect the program, even if it means ignoring some of the most heinous criminal acts imaginable. The fact that many around Penn State are still defending Paterno even in light of the Freeh Report shows how easy it is for a fanbase to go from being just fans to obsession to idolatry to darn near religious entity.

Look at how so many act after a big win or terrible loss, and it can last for days, which I don't get, and I'm about a diehard Shocker fan as they come. After the loss it ISURed in STL, and I was there in person, I was kind of mopey on the train ride back out to where I was staying, but dinner and a beer and chatting with others and I was back to normal. I was at a friends house watching us win the NIT championship, and we were hollering like we normally would during a game, but after we won it was interesting. We didn't start high fiving each other, or go outside and shout and all, it was just all happy smiles and conversation about the game and season, the upcoming NFL draft, etc.

Just my .02

[Kung Wu]

And my single argument to make against that is: So coaches can have sex with boys in a shower, and a school is fine, as long as it happened a few years ago, and the legal system handled it?

I think you wrote this in haste. A single coach sexually assaulted a boy. The school is absolutely not "fine", and nobody in this thread has said as much. Have no clue where you are going with the "few years ago" comment. The legal system is what is going to make the school pay way beyond any perceived benefit they have garnered since the assault occurred.

It would truly be one thing if it was an isolated incident, that people at the institution had no knowledge of. But it's documented that people in every level of the UNIVERSITY, not just the AD, had knowledge of it, and nothing happened. That is a huge lack of institutional control.

I haven't seen anything to confirm this. All I have seen is Internet rumor-mongering. It would certainly change my opinion of the matter if you can shoot me a link that shows its documented. Apparently I don't have the full picture.

I think it's laughable that schools will get penalized for giving a recruit a cheeseburger, but you can violate children on a campus, and nothing happens at the NCAA level.

When you dont pay a parking meter and get a ticket you take it up in traffic court. If you steal a car and kill someone with it, you take it up in criminal court.

FWIW -- I hate the NCAA and consider it to be a tyrannical government on a small scale. I can't stand that they mete out punishment on small things (e.g. Clevin Hannah) or large things (Penn State). Because their rulings are rarely ever fair and their results have indirect consequences. Example: Had Clevin Hannah played against Pitt its possible we would have won, played well against Texas, and been in the dance -- yet they consider that they were only punishing Clevin.

What would be a just punishment would be for the NCAA to blackball the former football coaching staff, athletic department heads, and administrators (Three Stooges) from working at any NCAA school by blocking those schools hiring them from competing.

The University and the football program must pay retroactively for their increased ability to play games for the years that this story was brushed under the rug. I guarantee you that Penn State would not be where they wer at in football the day this story broke, if they would have penalized Sandusky at the time. And that's not even the point, imo. The point is that this kind of behavior is not acceptable by any school who is under the NCAA administration.

I keep saying it and will continue to do so: Penn State, the university, will pay beyond any perceived benefit beyond the timeline the assault occurred, NCAA penalty or not. The school is rightfully up crapcreek without a paddle.

One last question: you want the University to be punished. Which set of these people of the University do you want to punish:

Students that knew nothing of this.
Faculty that knew nothing of this.
Staff (custodians, etc) that knew nothing of this.
The new football coaching staff that knew nothing of this and had nothing to do with it.
The new administration which had nothing to do with it and knew nothing of it.
The new AD department heads who knew nothing of it.
The boosters and fans who knew nothing of it.
The three stooges who were sacked and two of which have perjured themselves.
The bastard thats in prison that caused all of it.
The old school, dead coach who didn't handle it properly.
The GA who ended up a coach and sat on thr information years after it happened.

Which of those groups should be punished by the NCAA?

Again if you have a link that shows that more than the 6 people knew, there may be another set of people added to that list and it could change my thinking a lot.

[Aargh]

Kung, you're making a great argument, but I'm just not buying it.

The players will be allowed to trfr to other schools with no sit out requirement. The NCAA could even let schools go past the schollie limit to accommodate Penn St trfr's. The players will be ble to get their degrees and those going pro will have the opportunity for another yuear of progress.

The coaching staff will be OK. They have contracts. They get paid. The PSU coaching staff that's left isn't chump change. Those guys can get jobs at other schools or in the NFL. It's the PSU athletic department and the University that takes the big hit - and they've earned that.

The NCAA doesn't seem to have a morals clause, or a "conform to laws" clause, but it's easy to make the argument that if PSU had complied with legal requirements, turned in a high-ranking assistant as a pedophile raping young boys on the PSU campus, that PSU would have been less successful over the last 14 years. Maybe that doesn't "technically" fall under the definition of an "unfair advantage", but there's no way to argue that if PSU had complied with legal requirements, and prevented who knows how many young boys from getting raped on their campus, that they would have been less successful; on the football field.

PSU traded FB wins for allowing boys to get raped by one of their coaches in their locker rooms.

Give a 16-year-old a cheeseburger and cover it up and the NCAA will step in. Let a coach rape a 16-year-old and cover it up and there's no penalty? Do nothing and the appearance that giving someone a cheeseburger is worse than pedophile rape is created. That's just not going to fly with the public, the judicial systm, congress...and the NCAA and the BiG is going to do anything possible to avoid running into a congressional investigation with the public totally incensed at PSU.

[Kung Wu]

The players will be allowed to trfr to other schools with no sit out requirement.

Is there any precedence for that at all? You trust that the NCAA will do that?

The NCAA could even let schools go past the schollie limit to accommodate Penn St trfr's.

Why should they do that? (Rhetorical question) Other than medical hardships, is there any precedence for this? If you were another university in the Big 10 or Div. I wouldn't you balk at this?

The players will be ble to get their degrees and those going pro will have the opportunity for another yuear of progress.

So you acknowledge that you are punishing a number of innocent people, but that's okay because the seniors will still have a degree? I can get a degree anytime. I can only play my senior year once in a lifetime. I'm not as bothered about those going pro. I'm more bothered about those not going pro.

The coaching staff will be OK. They have contracts. They get paid. The PSU coaching staff that's left isn't chump change. Those guys can get jobs at other schools or in the NFL.

Again, acknowledging that innocent people get punished, but it's okay because in the long term they'll be just fine. Sure, all these people will be just fine -- but why punish them if they are innocent? The answer can only be: to be sure to stick it to the people that AREN'T innocent. Yet every single one of those that are guilty are gone, and in the shameful manner that they should be gone.

The NCAA doesn't seem to have a morals clause, or a "conform to laws" clause, but it's easy to make the argument that if PSU had complied with legal requirements, turned in a high-ranking assistant as a pedophile raping young boys on the PSU campus, that PSU would have been less successful over the last 14 years. Maybe that doesn't "technically" fall under the definition of an "unfair advantage", but there's no way to argue that if PSU had complied with legal requirements, and prevented who knows how many young boys from getting raped on their campus, that they would have been less successful; on the football field.

Yes, there most certainly is a way to argue it. Like most Internet chatter on this subject you are ignoring the sequence of events that occurred. Sandusky retired in 1999 after being _cleared of all wrong doing_ of the investigation in 1998. By 2002, 3 years later, when he was actually caught, he would have been just a retired ex-coach. In fact that's a major piece of what is so infuriating about all of this.

The administration could have had his ass properly investigated with only minor damage in reputation to the university or the football program -- completely opposite of your assertion -- yet they sat on it. Context makes a big difference -- and there was just very little at risk in turning over a retired ex-coach with a prior investigation (regardless how clean he turned out on the first incident).

Give a 16-year-old a cheeseburger and cover it up and the NCAA will step in. Let a coach rape a 16-year-old and cover it up and there's no penalty? Do nothing and the appearance that giving someone a cheeseburger is worse than pedophile rape is created. That's just not going to fly with the public, the judicial systm, congress...and the NCAA and the BiG is going to do anything possible to avoid running into a congressional investigation with the public totally incensed at PSU.

Yes, I'm very aware of what the public perception is. Regardless of public perception, a pedophile coach sexually assualting a child is a criminal matter WAY, WAY, WAY beyond the jurisdiction of the NCAA (as if NCAA has any jurisdiction at all). And a cheeseburger is a recruiting violation, like it or not, and is clearly in the "jurisdiction" of the NCAA gestapo.

The good knews is, I swim upstream alone on this and all you guys will get your way. I give them a 99.99% chance of getting the one year ban based purely on public pressure alone. Though if they wait until after the court proceedings to make a decision on the one year ban, I doubt the public pressure will be as palpable (because the court system will have taken care of business already).