Conference Shake Up 2.0

[Rlh04d]

In other news, the Big 12 doesn't plan on expanding past 10.

Big 12, As Of Now, Does Not Favor Expanding

The SEC said the same thing last year. Literally days before expanding.

If FSU wants to go, the B12 takes them. FSU still generates some of the highest ratings in football. If Notre Dame wants to go, the B12 expands. The only chance they don't expand is if neither of those teams is willing. Even then, the allure of a championship game might be enough to make them expand with Louisville and whoever else. Expansion is pretty formulaic at this point ... Everyone denies it every step of the way to avoid lawsuits and humiliation if one side backs out. Then one day they reverse everything they were saying.

The B12 commish doesn't even have the job yet. Nothing will happen with expansion until July.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I actually believe the Big 12 when they say they don't want to expand. My reasoning is that the top two FB schools in that conference, Texas and Oklahoma, aren't enamored with another stumbling block (conf. champ game) on their path to a national championship. The easier road benefits them greatly and they can make up for the money differential through their individual contracts for tier 3 rights.

I think the BIg 12 stays at 10 unless Notre Dame wants to join. FSU would be a nice add, but isn't enough to move the needle by itself. FSU is a shell of the program it was in the 90's - they haven't even been able to win the weak ACC for quite a while now.

[Rlh04d]

I actually believe the Big 12 when they say they don't want to expand. My reasoning is that the top two FB schools in that conference, Texas and Oklahoma, aren't enamored with another stumbling block (conf. champ game) on their path to a national championship. The easier road benefits them greatly and they can make up for the money differential through their individual contracts for tier 3 rights.

I think the BIg 12 stays at 10 unless Notre Dame wants to join. FSU would be a nice add, but isn't enough to move the needle by itself. FSU is a shell of the program it was in the 90's - they haven't even been able to win the weak ACC for quite a while now.

Not sure I understand your point there. You can't say that FSU doesn't move the needle because of lack of recent success but then say they would expand for Notre Dame.

ND is the definition of a shell of it's former self. FSU at it's worst is a 7 win team. They've won two national championships in the last twenty years, four straight bowl games, nineteen wins in the last two seasons, etc. Haven't had a losing season or missed a bowl game since the 70s.

Meanwhile Notre Dame hasn't even been in the title picture since 1993. They've only won two bowl games .... Since 1993. They've had almost as many losing seasons as winning in the last twenty years. At their worst, they are a 3 win team.

If you want to go off recent success, Texas is a shell of it's former self as well.

So which exactly is your point? Recent success, or television drawing power? Because FSU is vastly superior to ND in the first, and comparable in the second.

I don't mean that as an FSU grad pointlessly propping up his team. FSU had a terrible decade by our standards while we gathered up the balls to push out Bowden and Andrews. But their is no denying that FSU moves the needle. FSU/Miami games, even when both teams were at their worse, were record breaking in viewers. FSU has by far the highest viewers of any team in the ACC. As far as moving the needle in a TV contract, FSU might be top 5 nationally. Even with the last decade of average play.

As is Notre Dame. No conference wants them because of on field success. They haven't been good in twenty years, a full decade longer than FSU, and their bad seasons were ****ing awful. Conferences still want them because they draw ratings, average team or not.

Comparison between the two teams, just from FSU's "lost decade" starting in 2001, starting at the point where FSU went downhill rather than when ND did:

ND:
Wins: 77
Losing seasons: 3
Bowl Record: 2-5

FSU:
Wins: 93
Losing seasons: 0
Bowl Record: 7-4, three BCS games

[DUShock]

At least Bobby B at FSU saw the light and went quietly into the night. Just say'n...

[DoubleJayAlum]

Notre Dame's value has little to do with their current w/l record. Their history is the absolute best in college football (inventor of the forward pass, Knute Rockne, 4 Horsemen). Notre Dame is a brand all to themselves and that is why they can have their own TV network, have been able to remain independent when nobody else has and have their own exception to the BCS bowl selection rules. They are THE national brand when it comes to college football. EVERY conference in the country would do whatever they could to get Notre Dame as a member. Notre Dame is the only school in the country that could announce, "We want to join X conference tomorrow" and the conference would make it happen. (By the way, I am not a ND fan).

FSU does not have the same level of cache. In fact, it isn't even close. Hence the W/L/relevancy discussion about FSU. I have no reason to doubt your statement that "FSU has by far the highest viewers of any team in the ACC." That may mean a lot within the ACC, but is not that impressive of a statement to those not in the conference as the ACC is not exactly loaded with football powerhouses. It certainly is not the SEC, Big 12, Big 10 and probably not even the PAC12.

I have nothing against FSU and would probably root for FSU if they played Notre Dame. When it comes to a national discussion however, Notre Dame has a much more significant following than FSU. In other words, Notre Dame moves the meter more than FSU.

[1979Shocker]

Notre Dame's value has little to do with their current w/l record. Their history is the absolute best in college football (inventor of the forward pass, Knute Rockne, 4 Horsemen). Notre Dame is a brand all to themselves and that is why they can have their own TV network, have been able to remain independent when nobody else has and have their own exception to the BCS bowl selection rules. They are THE national brand when it comes to college football. EVERY conference in the country would do whatever they could to get Notre Dame as a member. Notre Dame is the only school in the country that could announce, "We want to join X conference tomorrow" and the conference would make it happen. (By the way, I am not a ND fan).

I thought Wichita State invented the forward pass back in 1905 when they were known as Fairmount College.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_Fairmount_vs._Washburn_football_game

[Rlh04d]

Notre Dame's value has little to do with their current w/l record. Their history is the absolute best in college football (inventor of the forward pass, Knute Rockne, 4 Horsemen). Notre Dame is a brand all to themselves and that is why they can have their own TV network, have been able to remain independent when nobody else has and have their own exception to the BCS bowl selection rules. They are THE national brand when it comes to college football. EVERY conference in the country would do whatever they could to get Notre Dame as a member. Notre Dame is the only school in the country that could announce, "We want to join X conference tomorrow" and the conference would make it happen. (By the way, I am not a ND fan).

FSU does not have the same level of cache. In fact, it isn't even close. Hence the W/L/relevancy discussion about FSU. I have no reason to doubt your statement that "FSU has by far the highest viewers of any team in the ACC." That may mean a lot within the ACC, but is not that impressive of a statement to those not in the conference as the ACC is not exactly loaded with football powerhouses. It certainly is not the SEC, Big 12, Big 10 and probably not even the PAC12.

I have nothing against FSU and would probably root for FSU if they played Notre Dame. When it comes to a national discussion however, Notre Dame has a much more significant following than FSU. In other words, Notre Dame moves the meter more than FSU.

I do not believe I argued that FSU moves the needle more than Notre Dame. I disagree with your statement that FSU does not move the needle at all because of recent on field success. That is what I responded to, because it's an ignorant statement.

You have a bizarre blend of on field success and off field success in your argument that is self contradictory. You keep talking about ND's importance for off field reasons, but you disregard FSU and the entire ACC strictly on on field success. Do you think only recent football success matters, or TV ratings, national cache, etc.? You can't keep talking up ND's cache but then switch gears to onlycaring about recent success ... Because they have none. ND moves the needle for all the reasons you said and more, no doubt. FSU moves the needle less ... But not that much less. And moving the needle has nothing to do with their recent success (though I do believe they are a legitimate title contender this year, coming off I believe a #6 F+/O rating nationally last year, and returning 19 starters).

I did say that FSU was the top ratings draw in the ACC. I'm not entirely sure why you think ACC's recent success is such a major factor in television ratings, though. Again, you are arguing so many different things at once its tough to see what you are even trying to say. Recent success has an impact on ratings, but it's not the defining factor. I also said that FSU might still be a top 5 team nationally in moving the needle based on TV ratings. I'll gather up some links for you to read in a minute. My IPad wiped out my first reply trying to tab between pages.

Random figures and notes:
The FSU/Oklahoma game last year drew 9m viewers. About a 3.5 million increase from ABC's average for the year.I can't find figures for the 2011 season, but that would have been the fourth highest rated game of the 2010 season.
FSU/Miami holds the top two spots for college football game ratings in ESPN history.
A very intelligent write up on the value of FSU compared to the rest of the ACC in both football and basketball: http://www.tomahawknation.com/2012/5...eam-in-the-acc
Bowl ratings, FSU is always in one of the higher ranked bowls of the year: http://www.bcsfootball.org/news/story?id=4819384
Another interesting article trying to capture all aspects of value for realignment. FSU comes in at #20 nationally, mainly due to a poor academic score. http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-footbal...-teams-schools
FSU is #2 at improving the ratings of bowl games: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...683872488.html
That last FSU/ND bowl game saw a 64% increase in viewers over the previous year, and was one of the highest rated bowls of the year. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...su-current-fsu

Is FSU as strong as ND? No, that's stupid. ND and Texas are probably the top two brands in the game. FSU could possibly be a top 10 team though ... Even now. And that has nothing to do with recent success. The same with ND. Both teams have national cache because of past championships, TV ratings, and national recognition. FSU might not move the needle more than ND, but they arguably move it as much as Oklahoma, and more than any other B12 team other than Texas. And more than any SEC team other than Alabama, LSU, or Florida. Or any PAC team other than USC. Or any ACC team. Or any Big East team. Or any B1G team other than Penn State, Michigan, or Ohio State. Those are the eleven teams in the country that move the needle the most in college football. And FSU is absolutely still up there.

If you have evidence that my characterization of FSU's power as a brand is wrong, please share. If you are simply going to say that FSU isn't winning enough to be worth adding, I don't know what I can tell you. Again, I am not comparing FSU and Notre Dame (although I believe if you look at average ratings last year, FSU might win, despite ND being on NBC while a lot of FSU games were on ESPN and thus had a lower max audience. ND's ratings have plummeted, now at the lowest in the history of the NBC deal). I only gave a brief comparison because your argument was all over the place. Your point was that FSU didn't move the needle any more and thus wasn't worth expansion for the B12. My point is that you are wrong. FSU is a top ten brand in the game,maybe top 11, and no discussion of recent success changes that. FSU would bring more money to the B12 than any team other than the ten I mentioned ... And some of those are arguable.

You also let off BYU as far as successful independent teams. Far more teams than just ND can be successful financially as an independent. BYU almost makes as much as ND on ESPN, and they're not even in the same ballpark of national cache.

[Rlh04d]

At least Bobby B at FSU saw the light and went quietly into the night. Just say'n...

Well, he was forced out by the Board of Trustees. He didn't really gracefully bow out ... He was pretty much begging them to let him stay.

He's been mostly quiet and respectful since then. He clearly carries a grudge against the FSU admin and Jimbo Fisher, though. He hasn't been back to FSU since being forced out.

I love the guy, but he screwed us badly. Florida's two national championships in the 2000s likely wouldn't have happened without him. A number of major, talented players vital to those teams (like Percy Harvin) went to UF after Bowden pissed them off, despite wanting to go to FSU. He couldn't remember the names of major recruits when they came to FSU on official visits. He bailed on an in home visit with Harvin and sent his son instead. Would have been a lot harder for UF to win those two championships without Bowden handing every major recruit in the state to them for years.

There's a reason FSU has been mediocre for a while. Our entire program was essentially a living museum to an eighty plus year old man who the game had left behind for ten years. See, WSU baseball.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I get as a FSU alum you have a hard time looking at this dispassionately.

Let me summarize: ND's rich history makes the present lack of on the field success irrelevant. They are THE national brand. FSU, because it does not have the history of ND, nor does it have the national following, hence their recent struggles are more relevant.

Yes, BYU is now independent, but they only just became so. Notre Dame has been that way for as long as I can recall. Other long time independents like Penn St and your FSU, etc. all had to join conferences for economic reasons, whereas Notre Dame did not. Only Notre Dame could get their own TV contract with a noncable network. Ultimately Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference because they feel it will detract from their national presence and make them more regional (that is also the reason they play a national schedule - games with east coast, west coast and midwest schools every single year).

I don't understand why you are getting so upset. All I said is that any conference would jump to add NOtre Dame in a second. FSU, on the other hand, does not have the same appeal and that is why the Big 12 has not added them already. I firmly agree that FSU is probably the most desirable of the ACC schools. However, to date, none of the other BCS conferences have decided that the desirability has reached the level that they have to snatch FSU up.

[Rlh04d]

I get as a FSU alum you have a hard time looking at this dispassionately.

Let me summarize: ND's rich history makes the present lack of on the field success irrelevant. They are THE national brand. FSU, because it does not have the history of ND, nor does it have the national following, hence their recent struggles are more relevant.

Yes, BYU is now independent, but they only just became so. Notre Dame has been that way for as long as I can recall. Other long time independents like Penn St and your FSU, etc. all had to join conferences for economic reasons, whereas Notre Dame did not. Only Notre Dame could get their own TV contract with a noncable network. Ultimately Notre Dame doesn't want to join a conference because they feel it will detract from their national presence and make them more regional (that is also the reason they play a national schedule - games with east coast, west coast and midwest schools every single year).

I don't understand why you are getting so upset. All I said is that any conference would jump to add NOtre Dame in a second. FSU, on the other hand, does not have the same appeal and that is why the Big 12 has not added them already. I firmly agree that FSU is probably the most desirable of the ACC schools. However, to date, none of the other BCS conferences have decided that the desirability has reached the level that they have to snatch FSU up.

I apologize if you have mistaken disagreement with being upset. You made the statement that ...

FSU would be a nice add, but isn't enough to move the needle by itself.

I have disagreed strongly with that statement. I have provided evidence of FSU's current place as a national brand. I have not made the claim that they are a stronger brand than Notre Dame. If you do not believe FSU is currently, through TV ratings and national cache, a top 10 team, you are welcome to make that assertion and provide evidence of why I am wrong. If you agree with that, but believe adding one of the top ten programs in college football does not "move the needle," I am confused as to what you think does move the needle.

In fact, I would argue that Clemson moves the needle more than any B12 team other than the big two. Maybe OK State. They get pretty strong tv ratings as well.

You appear to be under the impression that FSU has been trying to get into the Big 12 for a while and they haven't been willing to take them yet. Until a few months ago, the B12 was barely alive. Until the new TV contract and grant of rights, FSU would never have considered joining the B12. This is an issue that has come up since the new ACC TV deal was made, and sped up with the new B12 deal.

[SubGod22]

It appears that Boise State is considering buying their way into the Big West. Word is they'd be offering travel subsidies plus a one time payment that could end up being seven figures. SDSU wants them in but they need 8 votes to do it. The Big West holds all the cards right now and can get a lot of cash from Boise.


If the WAC is indeed dead, their June meetings ended with no word on invites or a plan, then I'm starting to really think that the MVC needs to look at Denver.

[Ta town]

It appears that Boise State is considering buying their way into the Big West. Word is they'd be offering travel subsidies plus a one time payment that could end up being seven figures. SDSU wants them in but they need 8 votes to do it. The Big West holds all the cards right now and can get a lot of cash from Boise.


If the WAC is indeed dead, their June meetings ended with no word on invites or a plan, then I'm starting to really think that the MVC needs to look at Denver.

I can think of two schools who would possibly vote Denver in. CU and WSU, the rest wouldn't want the travel. You would have to add one more and split into western/eastern.

UTA or ORU, Denver, Wichita, Creighton, MSU, Drake

UNI, Bradley, ISUr, ISUb, EU, SIU

I don't think anybody would go for it but to me Denver or Belmont is about as good as it would get for the Valley. Maybe they could get Denver and Belmont and still do a West/East split.

Better yet boot EU and add Denver:)

[Kung Wu]

If we could get in Denver that would be a strong reason to move the MVC tournament to a more central location (Tainted Louis would be even more removed from the epicenter).

[DoubleJayAlum]

If the WAC is indeed dead, their June meetings ended with no word on invites or a plan, then I'm starting to really think that the MVC needs to look at Denver.

Sub, why the love for Denver? It is a bad college sports town (My beloved Broncos dominate media attention there) and the program is relatively new at this level. Is that the best we can do?

[SubGod22]

Sub, why the love for Denver? It is a bad college sports town (My beloved Broncos dominate media attention there) and the program is relatively new at this level. Is that the best we can do?

My love bounces around. But Denver is a nice market that some believe the University could get some play in if they continue to progress. Hockey supports their athletics programs and thier basketball is being emphasized more and more and they've made good progress. They're just one that I see as having potential. When you look around, that's what the Valley will have to add. Schools with potential. Schools willing to invest into basketball. That's why I also would have considered Arlington as well. Sure, ideally we'd like to see more sustained success/improvement from certain schools, but by then, we'll probably have missed the boat. I'm also a fan of expanding the footprint. And pissing off the eastern schools is always enjoyable :)

A lot more research would need to be done on any school. More than I'm willing to put in.Budgets and potential and focus and whatever. But I keep looking at the likes of Wright State, Denver, Milwaukee, Belmont ORU and Murray State. I've cooled some on Wright, but would love to have a member in Ohio. Belmont and ORU are solid but I worry about them ending up another Evansville type as a small private. Denver and Milwaukee both intrigue me as they appear to be solid and have potential. They expand the footprint and are nice markets to be in. There are no homeruns available. Looking for schools that can compete in the upper half is where the focus should be.

Deep down I know we won't expand as long as Elgin is running things. He has no desire to do so. Not unless SLU joins and that's not going to happen. If either CU or WSU is looking for an improved conference, it'll probably be elsewhere.