Cessna and HBC Contract Negotiations

[BostonWu]

Who's to say Cessna and HBC management don't already have their foot half way in the door with other communities and just waiting for the union to make it an easy decision? In the back of their minds they would like a good reason to turn down these incentive-laiden offers from dixie land.

[SB Shock]

Who's to say Cessna and HBC management don't already have their foot half way in the door with other communities and just waiting for the union to make it an easy decision? In the back of their minds they would like a good reason to turn down these incentive-laiden offers from dixie land.

from what I have heard and read hbc is ready to pull the plug on wichita if they don't get concessions from the union. The union already has 2 strikes from their last greedy negotiation. As soon as they wiff at this one the order to move SE USA and Mexico will become very likely.

[Shocker85]

I find it interesting that the posters here are laying these companys' problems at the feet of the union. The companys agreed to, and signed off the contracts that have gotten them into their current predicament. Doing so was their decision. Furthermore, Textron has siphoned a lot of money off Cessna during general aviation boom periods and for the company to abandon operations in Wichita when Wichita needs the company is ... well ... typical big business.

I agree the current economy may dictate wage and benefit freezes or cutbacks, but I will GUARANTEE the straits are not as dire as these companies want the public to believe. The ecomonic problems in the US are rooted in the greed of big business. Why is it so easy to blame the working class for wanting a little of the wealth?

COLA clauses typically have very high thresholds before they take affect and do not typically automatically reflect across the board fluctuations in the CPI. While I do not know the details of these specific contract proposals, believing there will be a "bonus" realized due to the COLA is probably not factual.

The unions be damned, but I have worked in the aircraft industry for 25 years and I haven't seen a large aircraft manufacturing company here go belly-up yet. The ecomonic problems in the US are rooted in the greed of big business. Why is it so easy to blame the working class for wanting a little of the wealth.

--'85.

[WuDrWu]

Please define "big business greed".



At what point does it cease being fair business and become "greed"?



As a stockholder, I give up my money, in hopes of a return on my investment. There is NO promise I will ever see a penny. A worker outlays nothing, and gets a check for his daily efforts.

[WuDrWu]

I find it interesting that the posters here are laying these companys' problems at the feet of the union. The companys agreed to, and signed off the contracts that have gotten them into their current predicament. Doing so was their decision. -'85.

I grant you the old contract is worn by both the union and the company. That's the old contract.

Today is a different set of circumstances. You say you want the workers to share in the wealth. Are you cool with the workers sharing in the loss as well? Perhaps they will work for nothing, they don't even have to give money back, when the company loses money. Would that be ok?

[Capitol Shock]

Foreclosures are up in SW Wichita. I fear that they will be headed even higher.

Market forces should dictate supply and demand...even for labor. Corporate greed? Give me a break. If you are making payroll and able to pay your taxes you should be thankful in this climate. It seems like more and more people think that they are owed something from somebody because they are breathing. I am sick of the entitlement mentality and our hand out society is killing this country.

Get off your a$$ and do something to be productive....anything.

[Maggie]

The ecomonic problems in the US are rooted in the greed of big business. Why is it so easy to blame the working class for wanting a little of the wealth.

--'85.

To begin with, I didn’t get the impression that the posters in this thread were blaming the “working class” for anything; rather, they were questioning the wisdom of union management. Moreover, statements like “The economic problems in the US are rooted in the greed of big business” simply amount to irresponsible hyperbole and have nothing substantively to do with the contract negotiation. Sorry.

[Shocker85]

Please define "big business greed".

Continuous insane drive for productivity and profitibility (the bottom line) at the expense of all else. If you don't work in a large company, you don't understand being browbeaten by management to produce more when you have nothing left to give.

At what point does it cease being fair business and become "greed"?

At the point when the company loses all identity other than its bottom line. No innovation, no risk, no trust between the workforce and management.

As a stockholder, I give up my money, in hopes of a return on my investment. There is NO promise I will ever see a penny. A worker outlays nothing, and gets a check for his daily efforts.

Surely you're not serious. Employees adapt family and personal ambitions based upon benefits derived from their jobs. Experience and dedication are assets the company uses to their competive advantage and are the true investments made by the worker. The worker-company relationship has to be a partnership in order for the company to stay viable. A fair day of pay for a fair day of work. This applies all the way from touch labor to mid-level professionals to management. If a company looks at the workers only as a financial liability (rather than an investment), then the company is sunk. Fire all the workers then the expense becomes $0.

One of the problems in the world today is company's desire to please the stockholders. Turn it the other way - all the stockholder has invested is money. No blood, sweat, or tears.

-'85.

[RoyalShock]

When someone can walk into their manager's or a VP's office and legitimately say, "this company will do worse without my ability/expertise/knowledge/talent", then by all means they should, and will, share in the wealth because they have value that isn't easily replaceable. But I suspect most union workers can be replaced with a trainee at relatively little cost. Those workers should not expect to get paid above the market value of their job.

Since "bubble" is such a buzzword nowadays, I think we're going to see the union labor bubble burst sometime in the not too distant future. The global market will make it a necessity. But I'm not sure how political forces will factor in, and we all know they will.

[SHOCKvalue]

The average union worker - who is, in most cases, a high school graduate performing manual labor fitting of any able-bodied human on the planet - is not "working class", they are, by most economists and sociologists definition, upper middle class. Don't believe me? Look it up.

You know who otherwise resides in that socio-eonomic level? Educated people, business owners, and others who have had to do something notable with their lives to separate themselves from the pack after high school.

Now tell me again, who's greedy? The corporation for returning what in most cases is a <5% profit, or marginally-skilled union laborers wanting to pretend to be something they're not?

What is bringing down our economy is people wanting a standard of living not fitting to their circumstances. Unions are a primary player in regard.

For this country to ever regain prosperity again, unions will need to weaken or go away all-together. There's absolutely nothing patriotic or American about unions. They all trace their roots back to communistic and socialistic origins. Again, don't believe me? Google is your friend.

[Maggie]

....I think we're going to see the union labor bubble burst sometime in the not too distant future. The global market will make it a necessity. But I'm not sure how political forces will factor in, and we all know they will.

Unions are still a powerful force in the United States; however, their influence is waning. I wouldn’t necessarily say the bubble will burst but slowly deflate. Private sector union membership has declined consistently over the last several decades (hence, the push for legislation like card-check, etc.) – it is in the public sector where it has increased. Only now are you seeing some politicians push back against these Unions, i.e. Chris Christie in New Jersey (I don’t know about anyone else but I could watch Youtube clips of Christie going after teachers unions, once unthinkable, – all day long). I suspect the next governor of California will do the same.

There was a time when unions were necessary and noble organizations. I’m afraid that, in the United States, that was some time ago.

[wu_shizzle]

Please define "big business greed".

Continuous insane drive for productivity and profitibility (the bottom line) at the expense of all else. If you don't work in a large company, you don't understand being browbeaten by management to produce more when you have nothing left to give.

1) If you feel you the expectations put on you are "insane" why don't you leave? Is it possible that you know the free market will not compensate you like your union job will?


2) Isn't it fair that when your union leadership browbeats management to give more when they have nothing left to give, that you would be treated in a similar fashion?


Oh and by the way, that "insane drive for productivity and profitability" has defined almost every job I've ever had, so welcome to the real world.

[ISASO]

Some union workers need to experience life as a sole proprietor or partner where if you don't bust your butt every day, you lose and your family loses. That's when you deserve to share in the profits, not when some contract says you automatically get a raise based on some formula.

[WstateU]

Some union workers need to experience life as a sole proprietor or partner where if you don't bust your butt every day, you lose and your family loses. That's when you deserve to share in the profits, not when some contract says you automatically get a raise based on some formula.

ISASO, "You nailed that like a split hog!" :D

[pogo]

Some union workers need to experience life as a sole proprietor or partner where if you don't bust your butt every day, you lose and your family loses. That's when you deserve to share in the profits, not when some contract says you automatically get a raise based on some formula.

Amen Brutha