President Obama and the proposed mosque at Ground Zero

[Maggie]

I was sort of ignoring this issue – until my head exploded, for a variety of reasons, after reading President Obama’s speech on Friday (in transit from Texas to New York).

Discuss – if you want to.

[SubGod22]

I haven't read or heard his actual speech at this point but from what I've heard thru other sources it sounds like he and many others say it comes down to religious tolerance, even though those that have issues with it being built there have other issues with it. And most who are opposed to it understand and admit that they have a right to build it there, just think that they shouldn't out of consideration for all those who lived thru and or were effected by the events of 9/11.

Personally, I think they're building it there on purpose because they want to cause a scene and have. I understand the sensitivities of those opposed but the mosque people don't seem to care. From what little I've seen with it their "tolerance/understanding/dialogue" only goes one way which is quite hypocritical.

On a side note, I've gotten some enjoyment out of a certain someone wanting to build a gay bar near the mosque to promote tolerance, understanding and open dialogue.

[WuDrWu]

For someone that is (supposedly) so brilliant, "off the charts" IQ wise and (undeniably) an excellent campaigner, he opens mouth and inserts foot quite liberally, so to speak.


I guess I expect a little more patriotic leadership from the occupant of the oval office.

All those comments did, imho, is serve to inflame the "birthers" out there that think there is vast conspiracy going on.

Of course, come to think of it, this President has done almost nothing to convince anyone of anything different.

And perhaps that is the genius of the comment.....to inflame the fringe element to give him and his party more targets to shoot at on the right.

[Maggie]

Doc – Obama was doing the hokey-pokey with his foot over the weekend. Not exactly inspiring confidence no matter what your take on this issue might be.

Obviously, politically Obama’s decision to insert himself into this mess (whether you think he should comment on it or not – apparently he just can’t refrain from those “teaching moments”) was stupid – considering he finds himself on the wrong end of public opinion, yet again – even, this time, in New York. Not governing according to the polls is one thing, and a good thing at times; but President Obama sure picks strange issues to be on the wrong side of public opinion.

Obama is driving me nuts on this issue. His intellectual dishonesty, and that of many others commenting on this issue, is staggering and where I draw the line – on Friday he said something along the lines of that he believes that Muslims have a right to practice their religion just like anyone else in the United States – as if anyone who disagrees with the location of the mosque is saying otherwise. Give me a break, the countless strawmen are getting really tiresome. I am beginning to doubt whether our President can confront a controversial issue without using this tactic. Obama resorts to this sort of bait-and-switch argument because to articulate his rationale (he is obviously more concerned with giving offense to the Muslim World than about providing them with a propaganda triumph) would expose the huge gulf between his views (which would meet with broad approval in the faculty lounge at Harvard) and those of his fellow citizens.

As an aside, SubGod hit on one of my pet peeves in this little dust up. People keep saying “tolerance” is some sort of “value” that we should all up hold. Is tolerance really a value?

I would say tolerance is not, in fact, a value at all. If WuDrWu tolerates a kindly bore during a brief conversation is he employing the same moral standard as SB Shock who tolerates a stoppable violent crime in his presence? Moreover, does this standard qualify as one to which we should all be deeply committed? Tolerance is not a context-free virtue; it is a simpleton’s word, an artificial political term often used to indict those “we” cannot tolerate.

There are those of us, me included, who have been hoping for the institutional influence of a truly moderate Islam; of an unequivocal anti-terrorist leader and a mosque to temper what is obviously an urgent crisis in the Muslim world. For us, the promotion of a Hamas-indifferent Imam as the paragon of Islamic moderation is dispiriting. But for the West’s individual moderate Muslims – and I have many friends who are – who have been waiting desperately on a modern, welcoming house of Islam, one in which to practice their religion alongside the like-minded, it is absolute invalidation.

I suppose the “tolerant ones”, are saying, the Cordoba House is as good as it gets? I sure hope not.

[SubGod22]

White House Says Politics Not a Factor in Decision to Enter Mosque Debate

It looks like everyone who speaks who is for the mosque says it's all about religious freedom even though as pointed out above and in the article nobody is saying it shouldn't be built at all or that they don't have a right to build it. They simply don't seem to want to listen to anybody who has a differing opinion and address that aspect of things. I think that's what irritates me more than anything right now in this country. People just completely dismiss others opinions/thoughts on issues and won't listen. You don't have to agree with others, but you should at least make an effort to see where they're coming from and if there is reason to consider what they're saying.

Again, I feel the Park 51 people knew what they were doing and are doing it for a purpose. It has nothing to do with religious freedoms or tolerance or opening dialogue or whatever other reasons they give for doing it.

[InWuWeTrust]

doesn't bother me.

[Maggie]

White House Says Politics Not a Factor in Decision to Enter Mosque Debate

Ummmm…yeah, I would hope not; given it was a politically stupid thing to do in light of what President Obama (rightly or wrongly) believes. :roll:

[ISASO]

I do know of some folks who go to Protestant church near a muslim 'church'. They report that the Muslims are horrible neighbors and apparently go out of their way to be horrible neighbors. Reportedly, they position themselves next to a Christian church then go to work at intimidating the members and eventually running the other church out of the neighborhood, eliminating the competition and giving them a victory over Christians.

From what I understand the Muslims have a track record of employing this tactic in other areas so the Christians are trying to save their church from the same fate.

Anyone familiar with this?

[ShockTalk]

I do know of some folks who go to Protestant church near a muslim 'church'. They report that the Muslims are horrible neighbors and apparently go out of their way to be horrible neighbors. Reportedly, they position themselves next to a Christian church then go to work at intimidating the members and eventually running the other church out of the neighborhood, eliminating the competition and giving them a victory over Christians.

From what I understand the Muslims have a track record of employing this tactic in other areas so the Christians are trying to save their church from the same fate.

Anyone familiar with this?

I have no personal knowledge of this one way or the other. Nevertheless, most churches' membership come from more than just the neighborhood surrounding the church. Chances are that most of the people living in the neighborhood directly around the church don't attend that church anyway. I'm not encouraging the members of the church to treat the Muslims horribly in kind, but the tactics you indicate being impoyed does seem to indicate a "strength in faith" issue and who can outlast who.

[wsushox1]

Republicans are trying to argue that Obama's coments on religious tolerance are not with Mainstream America. Yet a Poll I read recently said thet 85% or so of Americans believe that other religoins have rights to build places of worship but only 20% agree that they should build one near Ground Zero.

I hate politics.

[SB Shock]

I had refrained from commenting on this story from when it broke because I believe this shouldn't be a political issue and any politicizing would be a violation of church and state. To a certain point things were working through normal progress until Obama had to politicize it - the can of worms is now open. Now it going to be fun watch the fun and games.

I personally I think this shows about as much sensitivity as if the Japanese had proposed to build a temple near the Arizona Memorial.

I also believe there are Muslims who are using our own country freedoms to rub our nose in it. I even heard a moderate muslim lady on CNN who was against it because she gets it.

But If they do build it, I say they should put a gay bar next door and the HQ of NOW on the other side of the mosque and Pork BBQ across the street.

[SB Shock]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html

New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

If this mosque does get built, it will forever be a lightning rod for those who have little room for Muslims or Islam in the U.S. We simply cannot understand why on Earth the traditional leadership of America's Muslims would not realize their folly and back out in an act of goodwill.

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.

[ISASO]

And our Omniscient, Almighty Holy One just twisted the knife in each family member of those who died in that place at the hands of Islamic radicals.

[Maggie]

I had refrained from commenting on this story from when it broke because I believe this shouldn't be a political issue and any politicizing would be a violation of church and state.

From a political standpoint, President Obama was getting pressure from some quarters to comment, one way or another, and he unwisely took the bait (which, once again, calls into question his competence).

Politicizing the issue is not a violation of church and state (it may not be a good thing either considering how dense many of our “betters” in Washington are); government action could violate that tenant but not necessarily. However, no reasonable person is advocating government action beyond compliance with existing zone ordinances, etc. (any building or new house of worship would have to deal with zoning “laws”).

The problem I have with President Obama, other than what I expressed above, is that his vacillating public stance regarding this issue is very, very shallow. You don’t need to have been a lecturer in constitutional law like Obama to know that the mosque’s backers have a right to build at Ground Zero (as the polling data wsushox1 referenced obviously show). That Obama, as the leader of the nation, fails to recognize that the situation calls for more than a sophomoric analysis that could be rendered by any first-year law student is unsettling.

I believe this could be reasonably interpreted as further evidence that President Obama doesn’t understand or appreciate America. It pains me to say so but all too often our President, both on the campaign trail and in office, has demonstrated a complete disconnect and even highhanded distain for our Country. His behavior too frequently suggests that he’s playing a cosmic joke on Americans’ essential decency, considered patriotism, and belief in American exceptionalism. For Obama, multiculturalism trumps national unity and moral relativism supersedes cultural confidence. When he called himself a “citizen of the world” I thought he might be pandering to an adoring crowd in Germany; however, it appears he actually believes this nonsense in the same manner so many of the so-called intellectual elite in this country do. Which is fine talk while it is limited to a college campus but dangerous talk for the leader of our executive branch – he was elected President of the United States not of the world.

People that are opposed to the mosque have raised legitimate concerns and to have the President of the United States unfairly imply that they are bigots (while others are explicitly saying so) is disturbing, arrogant, and insulting. President Obama now appears, at least to me, to be an intellectual coward of the sort I too often have to listen to here in New York. Any affront to his “world view” must be brushed aside as the irrelevant ravings of the irrational. The Constitution is an antiquated document that inhibits our “betters” from remaking our Country. They view themselves in the role of parents and we the insolent ignorant children who cling to our “guns”, “religion” and flag – we need to be lectured to not listened to.

I apologize for the long rant. Maybe I was tired from travel last week, maybe being in New York on 911 makes me especially sensitive to this issue, but I have never been so angry and disappointed in a President. Especially when he, given that he felt the need to weigh in on this issue, could have handled it with much more respect and decency – he could have treated his fellow citizens as adults.

In any event, I regret to announce, for this and other reasons, that my patience with President Obama has finally been exhausted.

[wsushox1]

The problem is, you can't say anything specific without offending or alienating a certain group of people; but being to broad and vague, as President Obama was, is probably not much better. It is a fine line, and its getting more and more fine everyday.

As this country becomes more Independent you will only see more of it. Republicans can't make a hard stand on an Issue with out fear of losing independents in an election. The same goes with Democrats. So we will see more Vague, Broad, and Shallow remarks involving controversial issues.

It is the culture we live in.