CIA 'Torture'

[rjl]

Royal, I'm going to bring up a subject here that you would of like to be put to rest a while ago, but here it is anyway.

What, exactly, is the code of conduct that Coldblooded broke in order to get banned?

In this thread, we have WuDrWu acting like a childish imbecile, adding nothing to the conversation but rather hurling insults at everyone who doesn't agree with him.

We've also had JohnnieBallgame ask to meet KCShocker11 and physically assault him, "just kidding" aside.

I realize that message forums are hard to moderate and making black-letter law to cover every possible infraction of the mysterious conduct code is next to impossible, but surely these posts warrant at least some sort of warning.

Thank you for your time.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

You guys sicken me...may the Lord have mercy on you both!

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

Guys, don't ever forget that some things are worth fighting for. Wouldn't it be fitting if the next terror attack only harmed those who feel George W Bush overstepped his bounds in protecting us?

You guys go ahead and feel morally superior on your way to assuming room temperature because the Muslim terrorist who will kill you the first chance they get, don't care if you and I disagree about intelligence gathering activities.

Obama and the rest of you morons have zero credibility and zero respect from many old soldiers like me. If you think running around the world and reading I'm sorry and America sucks from a teleprompter, makes any difference to a world that only respects and understands power, you are a fool.

Go ahead and mock me for my rant...sadly, it is guys like me who earned you that right. :-x

Something else that irks me about this statement.

If I may, Johnnie, let me summarize here.

You wish that everyone who doesn't share your iron-fisted view of global diplomacy was a foreigner so that you may physically fight them. We're either with you or against you, right?

You don't respect those who actually use the constitution you're defending and speak up when they feel that what their country is doing goes against everything it supposedly stands for.

You think that everyone in the United States should adopt your ideology or pay the consequences.

I'm also going to assume--not necessary based specifically on what you've said here, but just the general idea I get--that you think people like me have degenerated America to the point where it seriously needs an injection of religious based morals into law.

Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

What then, other than wardrobe and geography, separates you and others like you from the Taliban? Your mantra sounds remarkably similar.

Others who praised this disgusting statement can feel free to comment too. Eagle, WstateU, WuDrWu, feel free to defend yourselves.

WuDrWu, I'm assuming you graduated junior high a while ago, so I won't accept any more low rent insults.

The constitution was written by Americans, for Americans, and for those who choose to come live in America as Americans.

Have you read the constitution RJL?

Before you try to put words into the mouths of people you do not agree with to make your own point, read the document. Realize how much of what the WH, Congress, and the Supreme Court does is unconstitutional.

In addition, try reading the XIV Amendment, specifically Article III.

[rjl]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

You guys sicken me...may the Lord have mercy on you both!

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

Guys, don't ever forget that some things are worth fighting for. Wouldn't it be fitting if the next terror attack only harmed those who feel George W Bush overstepped his bounds in protecting us?

You guys go ahead and feel morally superior on your way to assuming room temperature because the Muslim terrorist who will kill you the first chance they get, don't care if you and I disagree about intelligence gathering activities.

Obama and the rest of you morons have zero credibility and zero respect from many old soldiers like me. If you think running around the world and reading I'm sorry and America sucks from a teleprompter, makes any difference to a world that only respects and understands power, you are a fool.

Go ahead and mock me for my rant...sadly, it is guys like me who earned you that right. :-x

Something else that irks me about this statement.

If I may, Johnnie, let me summarize here.

You wish that everyone who doesn't share your iron-fisted view of global diplomacy was a foreigner so that you may physically fight them. We're either with you or against you, right?

You don't respect those who actually use the constitution you're defending and speak up when they feel that what their country is doing goes against everything it supposedly stands for.

You think that everyone in the United States should adopt your ideology or pay the consequences.

I'm also going to assume--not necessary based specifically on what you've said here, but just the general idea I get--that you think people like me have degenerated America to the point where it seriously needs an injection of religious based morals into law.

Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

What then, other than wardrobe and geography, separates you and others like you from the Taliban? Your mantra sounds remarkably similar.

Others who praised this disgusting statement can feel free to comment too. Eagle, WstateU, WuDrWu, feel free to defend yourselves.

WuDrWu, I'm assuming you graduated junior high a while ago, so I won't accept any more low rent insults.

The constitution was written by Americans, for Americans, and for those who choose to come live in America as Americans.

Have you read the constitution RJL?

Before you try to put words into the mouths of people you do not agree with to make your own point, read the document. Realize how much of what the WH, Congress, and the Supreme Court does is unconstitutional.

In addition, try reading the XIV Amendment, specifically Article III.

Yes, I have read and studied the constitution.

Is that the crux of your argument?

[WuDrWu]

rjl, discomfort isn't torture. At least that's how many of us see it. Obviously you don't. If there aren't long term effects I don't see how it can be classified as torture. If anything uncomfortable qualifies than again, HS and college coaches around the country are guilty. They make athletes do things that cause pain and discomfort in order to get through to them or punish them for not doing what they should be.

And from what I'm hearing lately from a number of sources, Islam allows them (or at least this is howw they see it) to confess what they know if they've gone through so much they feel they can't hold out any longer. Maybe that's just what some want spread around but it's come from a number of different people. So by putting them through some discomfort they allow them to tell everything they know and they don't feel like they're letting Islam down.

SubGod, I'd like to agree with Triticum and thank you for attempting to keep this discussion civil.

I would say that making someone feel that you are drowning them would be extremely uncomfortable, but I've never been waterboarded, so I'm just assuming here. So we have that.

So then, what becomes the definition of torture? And what, exactly, are the benefits of torture? The story I posted said that they were getting good information from the suspects before any sort of torture was ever implemented, and after torture was implemented, much of the information they got was false or otherwise blew up in their face.

Studies after studies have shown that torture doesn't get the results many people think it does.

Let me tell everyone here a story. My grandfather had 8 brothers, all of whom fought in WWII. Some were killed, some were not.

One of his brothers, a P-38 pilot in the European theatre, was shot down over Germany. Detained by the SS, he was regularly beaten over the head with the butt of a Luger, and all he ever told them was his name, rank, and number. This son of a Pennsylvania coal miner, no more training than necessary for his role, gave them nothing.

He told my grandfather once that it got to the point where they KNEW he wasn't going to tell the SS anything, but they came in and beat him anyway just because they could do it.

War over, he came home. His last words as an American about 5 years later came in his doctor's office. "Doc," he said, "the headaches are killing me again." With that, he slumped over in his chair and died right there.

What good did torturing him do? He loved his country, he loved his cause, so all he did was give them nothing.

How reasonable is it to assume that everyone that we might torture would be the same?

Could it be that torturing these guys isn't necessarily about getting information but rather exacting some sick revenge? Humiliating them just because we can?

That sounds VERY un-American to me.

Wow, this so perfectly defines your inability to reason it should be put into a textbook and taught.

1)We (a group that seemingly doesn't include you) are better at what we do than the SS.

2)Being hit in the head is not the same as being in a cold room.

3)You are an idiot.

4)You think 3 is an insult when I am actually being complimentary. No one that is smart could think the way you do.

5)We didn't start any of this or that.....but we're damned sure going to end it as long as people like you aren't calling the shots. As hard as you might try, and as much free health care, condoms, aids medication and welfare as you want to give them at the United States Taxpayers expense, you aren't going to change that...I know you want to...and I know your heart bleeds with the dream....and I know that you believe that unfettered abortion, monetary redistribution, freedom to distribute child porn, segways, biodiesel and following in the shadow of great world leaders like France is the way to change the hearts of terrorists but wanting it so and it being so are 2 starkly different things that obviously you are struggling to grasp.

[SubGod22]

rjl, in the example you gave it appears that there were long term effects. Getting the butt of a Luger upside the head in what I'm guess a very violent and vicious way and other things we've heard about the Nazi's would cause long-term effects and be torture.

I'm not the greatest user of Google when searching for much of anything. But I'm going to do my best.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

RJL and KC,

I am an old soldier...I know a little about fighting. If there was anyway that I could have only fought for the people who appreciated my service I would certainly choose that now. There are times when I wish that all the true enemies of America and our constitution were all foreigners so I could have had a chance to make a real difference.

You guys sicken me...may the Lord have mercy on you both!

I am going to go pray for forgiveness for what I am thinking you deserve right now.

Guys, don't ever forget that some things are worth fighting for. Wouldn't it be fitting if the next terror attack only harmed those who feel George W Bush overstepped his bounds in protecting us?

You guys go ahead and feel morally superior on your way to assuming room temperature because the Muslim terrorist who will kill you the first chance they get, don't care if you and I disagree about intelligence gathering activities.

Obama and the rest of you morons have zero credibility and zero respect from many old soldiers like me. If you think running around the world and reading I'm sorry and America sucks from a teleprompter, makes any difference to a world that only respects and understands power, you are a fool.

Go ahead and mock me for my rant...sadly, it is guys like me who earned you that right. :-x

Something else that irks me about this statement.

If I may, Johnnie, let me summarize here.

You wish that everyone who doesn't share your iron-fisted view of global diplomacy was a foreigner so that you may physically fight them. We're either with you or against you, right?

You don't respect those who actually use the constitution you're defending and speak up when they feel that what their country is doing goes against everything it supposedly stands for.

You think that everyone in the United States should adopt your ideology or pay the consequences.

I'm also going to assume--not necessary based specifically on what you've said here, but just the general idea I get--that you think people like me have degenerated America to the point where it seriously needs an injection of religious based morals into law.

Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here.

What then, other than wardrobe and geography, separates you and others like you from the Taliban? Your mantra sounds remarkably similar.

Others who praised this disgusting statement can feel free to comment too. Eagle, WstateU, WuDrWu, feel free to defend yourselves.

WuDrWu, I'm assuming you graduated junior high a while ago, so I won't accept any more low rent insults.

The constitution was written by Americans, for Americans, and for those who choose to come live in America as Americans.

Have you read the constitution RJL?

Before you try to put words into the mouths of people you do not agree with to make your own point, read the document. Realize how much of what the WH, Congress, and the Supreme Court does is unconstitutional.

In addition, try reading the XIV Amendment, specifically Article III.

Yes, I have read and studied the constitution.

Is that the crux of your argument?

The point is the Constitution is the CRUX of America, and defines what is stands for and will not stand for.

My CRUX is that if you read what you are saying, then read the constitution, you will realize that while you feel you are morally right, you are constitutionally wrong.

[WstateU]

'Black Jack' Pershing... "and now you know, the rest of the story." :D

[WuDrWu]

I win.

Laughable.

You cannot even find the playing field yet you declare victory?

You not only win nothing, with your ideas, we all lose. You don't understand that, so many more may have to pay for your ignorance or, more likely, the ignorance of those you support.

I've said it before, if the leaders feel I am out of line, I will accept any punishment they see fit.

I get angry when dealing with knuckleheads that are trying to destroy the very foundation our country was founded upon. We have been heading down a slippery slope for some time because of egg heads like yourself that think you are smarter than everyone else. You aren't. You don't get it...you probably never will.

If that offends you, I'm sorry. But I will not apologize for attacking you when you and your kind continue to be part of the problem.

Personally, I don't think any of what I have said is that out of line. I am not worried about stupid things you have said and they don't offend me. Perhaps the truth is just a bit more painful for you than your falsehoods are for me?

[Triticum]

I'd still be against prosecuting based off of what Congress has said in the past on these issues.

Who would be prosecuted? The torturers themselves? Obama has said no to that already. Whoever authorized or orchestrated these practices? Members of Congress that knew what was going on and approved it anyway? Perhaps. I think that's unlikely considering this nation's/the CIA's very long history of torture (It's not like these methods were invented overnight) together with how few people have ever really gotten in trouble for it. But if prosecution were to happen, we'd have to know exactly who did what and just as importantly, why.

Then once we had that information, we would have to know if any laws were broken. I am hardly an expert on the law so I don't know the answer to that question but I would surmise that at least one was broken along the way.

[WuDrWu]

Here's a question for you rjl....

What do you see as a good outcome for you and those that think like you? Give me a few general details.

Something like....


The AG prosecutes Bush and his team and they get a couple of years in jail and the rest of the world salutes us and the terrorists lay down their arms and we all have a big group hug and claim Bush was the problem all along since everything was hunky dorey before he took office.


The last part is a bit satyrical but I think you get my drift. I am honestly curious....please also include a rough estimate of tax payer dollars spent. Do not reference any dollars already spent as a way to justify anything...unless those dollars can somehow be recovered, I don't think they belong in the discussion.

I am honestly curious as to your response.

Btw, having to try and straighten you out is taking me away from updating certain members whom deserve some good inside information....but I am kinda forced to deal with the guy that takes off his clothes, barks at the moon and does it on my front lawn.

[SB Shock]

I would have more respect of the liberals views on the torture of terrorist except for these two words - PRO CHOICE. They want to protect terrorist but refuse to fight for the unborn - makes a lot of sense and hardly is consistent.

[WuDrWu]

I would have more respect of the liberals views on the torture of terrorist except for these two words - PRO CHOICE. They want to protect terrorist but refuse to fight for the unborn - makes a lot of sense and hardly is consistent.

Very solid point.

The ACLU's greatest hits:

Terrorists
NAMBLA
Slaughterers of the unborn

There is a group you want to support.

[ShockerPrez]

What makes me sick about the whole thing is not whether this is or isn't torture. What makes me sick is how this has turned into a political circus!

Seriously, why does this have to be aired out in public? What is this solving? All it is doing is #1 dividing the country, further deepening the divide in this country. #2 Giving out interrogation methods used by the people designed to protect us, thus making their job more difficult. #3 Giving more ammo to numbskulls at places like the UN and around the world to continue to fuel their fire that the US is the epitomy of evil.

This sickens me. This debate needs to be handled by the President, the military, the CIA, and members of congress that are in the appropriate committees. And the only charges brought should be those leaking this information that involves our national security.

This whole debate is politically motivated, on both sides.

[WuDrWu]

Fantastic point Prez......


This comes down to a discussion as to what is or isn't torture, it is semantical. Anyone that thinks this was done with any other reason that protecting the country at large is blind. Who is the best debater? That's what this is about....that and how much political hay can be made. President Obama put it to rest because he thought it was the right thing to do...then I believe his minions told him he was throwing away a great chance to pummel the right, so he changed his stance.

When things can stop being political, for everyone, we can finally start making some progress.

Again, great point.

[shoxlax]

If the thought of pouring a little water on these thugs bothers the libs, Doc, the fact that we kill dozens of them on the battlefield every day must drive them crazy.