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  • Originally posted by 1979Shocker
    Does anybody know what some of the pros and cons are for having a government-run healthcare system?

    Also, what are some of the pros and cons of the current private insurance-run healthcare system?
    I have a little time today (while my office is open and I am here – I think I am going to be a lonely soul – we are getting a lot of snow), I am going to try to answer your questions – albeit in a round about way. That said – I think you need to get one thing straight about the healthcare situation in the United States: It is not a true “private insurance run healthcare system”. Notwithstanding, you ask a couple of perfectly good questions and while I am no expert I can try to give you the general arguments of both sides and you can decide for yourself – what sounds reasonable and what does not.

    I wrote about this before in this thread: http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtop...iciency#272015

    The difference between most conservatives and most liberals on health care is not a difference of degree but a difference of direction - a difference on the question of which we way want to move from our existing highly inefficient system of paying for heath insurance.

    Both sides agree there are huge problems with the current system, and they even agree on what some of those problems are: there is a shortage of incentives for efficiency, and therefore costs are rising much too quickly, which leaves too many people unable to afford coverage. The system we have is neither a market nor a government program; it’s a private third-party payer system, and so makes very little economic sense. The question is, given that we want to change the existing system, how do we want to change it?

    Liberals argue that we should move in the direction of socializing insurance coverage: That the efficiency we lack would be produced by putting as much as possible of the health-care sector into one big “system,” in which the various inefficiencies could be evened and managed out of existence by the rational arrangement of rules and incentives. The problem now, they say, is that the system is chaotic and answers only to the needs of the insurance companies. If it were made more orderly and answered to the needs of the public as a whole, costs could be controlled more effectively.

    Conservatives argue that we should move toward a genuine individual market in insurance coverage: That the efficiency we lack would be produced by allowing for price signals to shape the behavior of both providers and consumers, creating more efficiencies than we could hope to produce on purpose, and allowing competition and informed consumer choices to exercise a downward pressure on prices. The problem now, they say, is that the system is opaque, hiding the cost of everything from everyone and so making real pricing and therefore real economic efficiency impossible. If it were made more transparent and answered to the wishes of consumers, prices could be controlled more effectively.

    (This is part of what ShockCity does not understand – when his insurance company allegedly charges $9,000.00 for the tests, etc. done by his doctor – it is not only defensive medicine that is a problem (it is) but a more fundamental questions is: How much should it really cost? I don’t know and I know his doctor doesn’t know either. Next time you go to the doctor to get a test done, after your insurance is confirmed try asking him or her: Hey, Doc – what if I want to pay you in cash. How much? And then behold the deer in the headlights look your doctor will give you. Your doctor will have no clue what he or she should charge you. Royal correctly noted this point in the thread linked above)

    Anyway all this means that, beginning from where we are now, liberals and conservatives want to move in roughly opposite directions. And they each tend to think that moving in the other’s direction would be worse than just keeping what we have for now. That’s why the offer of moving in the Left’s direction but not quite as far or quite as fast as the Left would ideally like isn’t really very attractive to conservatives. It’s why the individual pieces of their bills that the Democrats try to point to as incorporating Republican ideas (which in some cases really don’t) don’t really win any Republicans - because the question is which direction are you moving the system in on the whole?

    There are ways of incorporating market mechanisms in an approach that on the whole moves toward a more socialized insurance sector than we have now (like creating insurance exchanges), and those as part of such an approach would still not appeal to conservatives, who tend to think that even the current system, with all its problems, is preferable to the inefficiency of a true third-party payer system in which the government enforces efficiencies. There are ways of using government quite energetically (and expensively) in an approach that on the whole moves toward a true individual insurance market (like large high-risk pools for those with pre-existing conditions), and those as part of such an approach would still not appeal to liberals, who tend to think that even the current system, with all its problems, is preferable to leaving to the market, with its cold vicissitudes, the allocation of so essential a necessity as health coverage.

    So the difference between the Left and the Right is not a difference of degree, but of direction, and each side tends to think that moving even a little in the wrong direction is worse than doing nothing. That’s why a compromise won’t be so easy.

    The larger public, I think, is not so tied to either direction, but is opposed to doing anything huge. That’s a big part of what the Democrats have done wrong this year: They have proposed too much. Whichever side is smart enough to propose some modest and sensible incremental steps in its preferred direction will have far better luck with the public.

    Conservatives would be wise to do so in a serious and concerted way before liberals realize that it’s time to employ some different means toward their same, in my judgment, misguided end.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Maggie
      The larger public, I think, is not so tied to either direction, but is opposed to doing anything huge. That’s a big part of what the Democrats have done wrong this year: They have proposed too much. Whichever side is smart enough to propose some modest and sensible incremental steps in its preferred direction will have far better luck with the public.

      Conservatives would be wise to do so in a serious and concerted way before liberals realize that it’s time to employ some different means toward their same, in my judgment, misguided end.

      This X 1000. There is nothing wrong for digging your heels in when you feel something is unjust. I have NO problem with that. However, when you agree that something has to be done, as the vast majority of all Americans do here, playing politics is a recipe for disaster, imho. Certainly for Republicans that have played the political game about as poorly as it can be played in the last 4-6 years.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by WuDrWu
        Originally posted by Maggie
        The larger public, I think, is not so tied to either direction, but is opposed to doing anything huge. That’s a big part of what the Democrats have done wrong this year: They have proposed too much. Whichever side is smart enough to propose some modest and sensible incremental steps in its preferred direction will have far better luck with the public.

        Conservatives would be wise to do so in a serious and concerted way before liberals realize that it’s time to employ some different means toward their same, in my judgment, misguided end.

        This X 1000. There is nothing wrong for digging your heels in when you feel something is unjust. I have NO problem with that. However, when you agree that something has to be done, as the vast majority of all Americans do here, playing politics is a recipe for disaster, imho. Certainly for Republicans that have played the political game about as poorly as it can be played in the last 4-6 years.
        :good:
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        Comment


        • I didn’t mean to imply that the Republicans don’t have ideas – just that it is time that they get serious about keeping those idea’s front and center. In fact, I think the Republican’s have handled the politics of this situation fairly well so far – and they are winning the general argument.

          If the Democrats ultimately fail in their attempt to pass this monstrosity – I don’t think Republican’s should simply let the issue die. Partly because I don’t think the Democrats will let it die and partly because I think Republicans can step into the policy void with some solid incremental proposals. Although, as I pointed out, compromise in this area will be very difficult.

          Back to ideas: Any fair observer of the health summit (even though I consider it largely a farce) yesterday, and to be fair I only watched parts of it (I’m political junkie but I’m not crazy enough to sit through the whole thing) would conclude that Republican’s are not simply the “party of no”.

          Rep. Paul Ryan is exceptional in this area and I saw no Democrat even attempt to argue with him – they just changed the subject. I would have loved to have seen more back and forth - between Ryan and any Democrat – the guy knows his stuff (he is one of the few Republicans I have confidence in). Ryan’s “Road Map”, which is his own proposal, is a serious attempt at problem solving – my only criticism, based on what I have read, is that Ryan, similar to Democrats this past year, may be – politically – trying to do too much.

          Comment


          • One thing I think we can agree on is that with the current Congress, no Republican plan is going to see a vote, let alone pass. The Dems won't stand for it and while some know they are in hot water with their states and districts, there aren't enough that will abandon the sinking ship.

            IMO, the route the GOP should take is to continue playing obstructionist and vilifying the Democrats. That seems to be playing fairly well with the public. All the while, work behind the scenes to develop a sensible plan to unveil once they reclaim a sizable portion of seats, whether it's next year or in three years. The public will want to know that the legislation was crafted carefully, with the right goals in mind and the right people having input.

            That last part might be an oxymoron: carefully crafted legislation with the right goals.

            Comment


            • Paul Ryan

              Paul Ryan

              Like I wrote - this guy is pretty good.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 1979Shocker
                Does anybody know what some of the pros and cons are for having a government-run healthcare system?

                Also, what are some of the pros and cons of the current private insurance-run healthcare system?
                Round here we just want the cons. The pros don't matter. If you are in favor of it you must be a bleeding heart, tree hugging, scum sucking, liberal. If you present pros, you are obviously an idiot and need us right wingers on here to set you straight.


                Comment


                • Originally posted by ShockCity
                  Originally posted by 1979Shocker
                  Does anybody know what some of the pros and cons are for having a government-run healthcare system?

                  Also, what are some of the pros and cons of the current private insurance-run healthcare system?
                  Round here we just want the cons. The pros don't matter. If you are in favor of it you must be a bleeding heart, tree hugging, scum sucking, liberal. If you present pros, you are obviously an idiot and need us right wingers on here to set you straight.
                  Just like a typical little liberal. You can't make the intelligent argument and therefore are going to take your ball and go home and not play. That is fine except it is our ball.

                  Intelligent well thought out arguments are always welcome, but if you come in here with your democratic talking points and toss softball around - your going to be hammered.

                  Of course, it probably has went over your head, but there are many different type of conservatives on this board and we don't agree on all things with each other all the time, but the common thing is we think for ourselves and don't provide blind support to any one party and will equally criticize any party when those principles are being sacrified.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ShockCity
                    Originally posted by 1979Shocker
                    Does anybody know what some of the pros and cons are for having a government-run healthcare system?

                    Also, what are some of the pros and cons of the current private insurance-run healthcare system?
                    Round here we just want the cons. The pros don't matter. If you are in favor of it you must be a bleeding heart, tree hugging, scum sucking, liberal. If you present pros, you are obviously an idiot and need us right wingers on here to set you straight.

                    Well then, present some pros. I haven't seen you do anything but complain about conservatives, which of course is the liberal playbook. Can win on point, attack the person.

                    Comment


                    • I have a good friend who is a hospital CEO. Here is an editorial he wrote last August on what needs to happen with healthcare.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by SB Shock
                        Originally posted by ShockCity
                        Originally posted by 1979Shocker
                        Does anybody know what some of the pros and cons are for having a government-run healthcare system?

                        Also, what are some of the pros and cons of the current private insurance-run healthcare system?
                        Round here we just want the cons. The pros don't matter. If you are in favor of it you must be a bleeding heart, tree hugging, scum sucking, liberal. If you present pros, you are obviously an idiot and need us right wingers on here to set you straight.
                        Just like a typical little liberal. You can't make the intelligent argument and therefore are going to take your ball and go home and not play. That is fine except it is our ball.

                        Intelligent well thought out arguments are always welcome, but if you come in here with your democratic talking points and toss softball around - your going to be hammered.

                        Of course, it probably has went over your head, but there are many different type of conservatives on this board and we don't agree on all things with each other all the time, but the common thing is we think for ourselves and don't provide blind support to any one party and will equally criticize any party when those principles are being sacrified.
                        SB, you just outlined the gameplan for almost every thread in the politics section, only reverse.

                        Post some pro-conservative backwash. Doesn't matter the source. Doesn't matter what facts it is based on, if its based on facts at all. Sit back and hope to get patted on the back by all the other like-minded GOP Teabaggers.

                        Rinse. Repeat.

                        It's moderately funny that now all the Shockernet Teabaggers are accusing the few liberal minded folk with the temerity to post in this conservative cesspool of the things that they themselves have been guilty of all the live long day: not using facts, ad hominem attacks, etc.

                        The real funny thing is that you all act like liberal minded people are the idiots. As if it takes intelligence to be a conservative in Kansas, where most are born, raised, and spoonfed conservatism their entire lives, surrounded by groupthinking conservatives throughout their days.

                        I opine that being a liberal in Kansas is substantial proof of intelligence. You've at least proven that you can think for yourself (not saying that Kansas conservatives don't think for themselves, but, as I stated, being conservative in Kansas is definitely not proof that they do), and are willing to realize for yourself that some of the things you've been taught and the things your friends are associates are saying don't add up.

                        Of course, us liberals are used to insults. Mostly because most Kansas conservatives, especially the likes of Shockernet Teabaggers, are just so damn awful at them.
                        The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.

                        Comment


                        • rjl,


                          You're not a smart man. You're a lawyer, correct?


                          Like I said......


                          Are you a little concerned about some coin coming out of your pocket with some tort reform? Nope, can't do anything like that.


                          All you did was insult in that last post. You must get hard watching MSNBC with those kooks spewing hate all the time.

                          Please tell us poor old country folk, too stupid for any learnin', closed minded, clinging to our religion and our guns......please tell us how to fix our problems.

                          Jackass.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by WuDrWu
                            Well then, present some pros. I haven't seen you do anything but complain about conservatives, which of course is the liberal playbook. Can win on point, attack the person.
                            Coming from the man who had to take a sabbatical because, lacking the brainpower to do anything but attack others in lieu of ever posting a single, verifiable fact, he blew a gasket and couldn't function on the one site that gave meaning to his life.

                            But, here goes.

                            Pros:

                            Healthcare is currently a big, giant, huge cluster****. Healthcare costs are astronomical. I could post the numbers, but you wouldn't believe them. Look them up yourself.

                            A government organized healthcare industry would be regulated. I know "regulation" is a pejorative to a Teabagger like yourself, but regulation has been proven to do many good things, just like deregulation has been proven to do many bad things (see: banking crisis). Just like a city water department doesn't have to advertise or sell its offerings, a government run health care system wouldn't have to pay for advertising or sales. It would just be.

                            Have you ever tried to get healthcare as an individual? To get something that even remotely comes close to decent healthcare you get through an employer, you are looking at paying over $400 a month. Why is that? Why is it so astronomically high? I'm talking about a healthy individual. Mid 20's. No major medical history beyond maybe the flu every other year. And that package, while close, still doesn't offer the same coverage as an average employer offered plan.

                            What if a government organized institution combined all those individuals who would otherwise be forced to pay in the mid 400's and created a pool of insured people, just like an employer does, to lower the individual's rates? What if, instead of making employers pay for health insurance, we ran it through the government just like every other modern country on the planet? What if, instead of paying for pills and insurance plans to be advertised on TV, the money we pay for our health went to our health?

                            Second point. Ask yourself this question: Do you think that someone with a pre-existing condition should be able to get health insurance? If you answer "yes", 80% of the American population agrees with you. Here's the rub: if you mandate that all health insurance providers give health insurance to those with pre-existing conditions, many people would wait until that condition happens before they get health insurance. In order to preclude that from happening, then, you must also mandate everyone having health insurance. In order for everyone to have health insurance, you've got to figure out a way to make it available to them at a reasonable cost.

                            No one has ever said that the government health insurance would be free. We're just talking about making things reasonable.
                            The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by WuDrWu
                              rjl,
                              You're not a smart man. You're a lawyer, correct?
                              Funny. Deep down inside, you know I'm smarter than you've ever dreamt of being.



                              Originally posted by WuDrWu
                              Jackass.
                              Originally posted by WuDrWu
                              Can[sic] win on point, attack the person.
                              Didn't know it would be that easy to paint you the hypocritical moron that you are, Doc. I'll just sit back and let you rip your own contentions to shreds.
                              The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off.

                              Comment


                              • You've said what's wrong, but offered no solutions except to include everyone.

                                I thought our society was free?


                                So, if healthcare, then we should regulate lawyers as well? Those costs are out of control. Only the very rich can get good representation.

                                That'll work, correct?

                                Comment

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