Las Vegas Terror Attack

[wufan]

Not sure what type of weapons this fella had in his possession and if they were purchased or modified legally.

I am fairly confident that it is legal to manufacture individual parts for guns hat can then be sold to individuals that can modify their semi-auto to fully-auto. This may have been why the terrorist was able to fire what sounded like an automatic rifle.

Whatever the case, I hope that appropriate thought is put into the weapon type and appropriate legislation.

[Kung Wu]

I am fairly confident that it is legal to manufacture individual parts for guns hat can then be sold to individuals that can modify their semi-auto to fully-auto. This may have been why the terrorist was able to fire what sounded like an automatic rifle.

No. There is a LOT of misinformation floating around about this, but it is very clear that it is illegal: National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b)

[wufan]

No. There is a LOT of misinformation floating around about this, but it is very clear that it is illegal: National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b)

That was the definition of "machine gun" but it makes no claims to legality. I saw a documentary on the manufacture of the parts, which could be purchased individually, but not from the same company. If you have further information, I'd love to see it.

[SHOCKvalue]

Being found in possession of a fully automatic (internally-mechanically) firearm is an express lane to real jail time, without the (very expensive and complex) paperwork to legally own such. It's not a gray area, or an issue up for debate. Hone your google-fu if you need personal explanation.

[Kung Wu]

That was the definition of "machine gun" but it makes no claims to legality. I saw a documentary on the manufacture of the parts, which could be purchased individually, but not from the same company. If you have further information, I'd love to see it.

Yes, the definition is key. It includes any part or parts that make a gun a machine gun -- i.e. any gun that can shoot more than a single round with a single pull of the trigger. From there it's a simple matter of looking up what class in the BATF that weapon is considered, and therefore what is required to meet be able to manufacture, transport, sell, possess, etc, those specific weapons.

[Kung Wu]

That was the definition of "machine gun" but it makes no claims to legality. I saw a documentary on the manufacture of the parts, which could be purchased individually, but not from the same company. If you have further information, I'd love to see it.

If you have a Class 3 SOT License, you can deal machine guns (Title II weapons), but there are plenty of regulations around those dealers as to who they can transfer to (you as a private citizen have to get approval from the ATF to receive the weapon from the Class 3 licensed dealer). That includes "parts" that convert semi-autos (or even single shot firearms) into a machine-gun as shown earlier. And you as a private citizen can only transfer to another individual if THEY are approved by the ATF. Also, if my memory is correct (it usually isn't), I believe to transfer the machine gun to another person in another state, it HAS to go through a FFL holder -- I could be wrong on that, but that's from recollection.

[wufan]

I think we are talking about different things. You can buy an auto sear (http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx...=M16+auto+sear) legally under federal law. With a drill press, a semi-auto weapon can be made fully auto. The installation of the auto sear into a weapon is illegal, however if one was so inclined to massacre a crowd of people, the parts are readily available in most states.

[SB Shock]

I think we are talking about different things. You can buy an auto sear (http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx...=M16+auto+sear) legally under federal law. With a drill press, a semi-auto weapon can be made fully auto. The installation of the auto sear into a weapon is illegal, however if one was so inclined to massacre a crowd of people, the parts are readily available in most states.

It might appears to be a full-auto conversion kit being sold freely. If you try and go thru with the purchase and you don't have the required paperwork in place - you are at risk of spending 10 years in prison for just trying to make the illegal purchase. If you notice, those parts have to be shipped to license FFL holder. The FFL holder is not going to release them to you unless you show you have the required approvals.

[wufan]

It might appears to be a full-auto conversion kit being sold freely. If you try and go thru with the purchase and you don't have the required paperwork in place - you are at risk of spending 10 years in prison for just trying to make the illegal purchase. If you notice, those parts have to be shipped to license FFL holder. The FFL holder is not going to release them to you unless you show you have the required approvals.

Is that true? It says in the sale, "FFL not required."

[wufan]

Looks like he had several FN15s and M4s. One was modified with a legal rapid fire bump stock. They are investigating the others to see if they were modified for fully auto. All weapons were purchased legally. Still no motive.

[Play Angry]

Should a bump stock, which seems to achieve the same functionality of an automatic, be legal?

If so, why? If indiscriminate fire is the basis for outlawing automatics, what makes this different?

[Play Angry]

For clarification, I am asking what makes this different from a functional standpoint, not a mechanical perspective. It looks like a bump stock provides for between 9 and 11 rounds per second.

That seems like an automatic by another name to me.

[WheatShock]

Should a bump stock, which seems to achieve the same functionality of an automatic, be legal?

If so, why? If indiscriminate fire is the basis for outlawing automatics, what makes this different?

Bump stocks might end up being banned after this is all over with. However you do not need a modified stock to bump fire an AR. Bump firing can be done with an unmodified rifle relatively easily. You would suffer a significant accuracy loss, but that wouldn't matter much if your intent was to hose down a large crowd like the Vegas shooter.

[Play Angry]

For reference, the original Thompson submachine gun made famous by gangsters during prohibition and used by the U.S. military for thirty plus years, fired at a rate of 10 to 11 rounds per second.

[rrshock]

For clarification, I am asking what makes this different from a functional standpoint, not a mechanical perspective. It looks like a bump stock provides for between 9 and 11 rounds per second.

That seems like an automatic by another name to me.

Functionally, there is no reason to use a bump stock, except in this type of instance. The accuracy isnt good and why wpuld you want to blow through 30+ rounds in no time.

Im a huge gun supporter, but I too think that it might be time to talk about the legal add ons that semi autos dont need.