Charlottesville riots

[WuDrWu]

I've probably said this before, but I'll say it again. If we want true unity in this country, we have to have more self-policing.

Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.

A Democrat 50 years ago. Weren't we a lot more "backwards" then? Why are those words spat upon today?

[RoyalShock]

I'll say this about Doc. At the core, there are differences in our opinions on things. However, when we've discussed those things in our interactions, he has always been respectful about it. He'll jokingly give me crap about certain things. He will be very passionate when he tells me why he thinks the way he does. However, he is understanding of where I come from on things...never rude or totally dismissive. He might counter with something that makes me have to dig deep to strengthen my opinion, but he is respectful about it. I do appreciate that. His approach with me works a lot better than the previous person I mentioned.

That's how people who care for, or have to work, live, or be with each other have discussions. The problem is how easy it's become to hide behind a keyboard or run to a safe space and claim victimhood. It's not just anonymous newspaper editors who don't have to face the music created by their editorials.

It's going to take another cultural revolution to get back to a general ambiance of civility. It will get much worse before it gets better, I fear.

[jdshock]

I'm just curious, and this is for all those out there that completely disagree with me, so basically most of you, but I'm curious....

1) How long does white America (not my term) have to pay for the sins of slave owners? Or how much? Perhaps if there is an answer, we can pay it and move forward as a country? I'm serious. How long do good and decent people (not hate filled criminals that still hurt others...I'm talking about folks that live their lives that all people are created equal, even if they don't all end up having equal) have to pay for the sins of their great, great, great (and further back) grandparents, or just people of their same color if they have no relation?

2) It's often said children aren't born racist and they aren't born with hate in their hearts. Does that work both ways, or only with white children?


I don't know anyone that knows anyone that was a slave. I doubt anyone here does either. It stands to pass that anyone born today doesn't know anything about slavery. I also don't question, AT ALL, that there are inequities in this country. We aren't perfect. But WE aren't perfect. I don't think WE includes only white people. We can't even have a discussion about all the problems with minorities that have NOTHING to do with evil white people. And these problems are FAR more damaging to people than the KKK, neo Nazis or the alt right (whatever the hell that is). And if you don't think so, then you're never going to and there is little hope, for all of us.

One of the biggest issues is regularly acting as if slavery was so long ago. And more importantly, acting as if the "sins" against black people ended the moment that slavery ended. I would bet some on this board grew up during the Jim Crow era.

I don't know what the rest of the country wants. And I don't even purport to know what the majority of people want. I do know that your post itself says "there are inequities in this country," but then you state "all the problems with minorities that have NOTHING to do with evil white people." I'd be interested in hearing what problems you believe there are that have "NOTHING" to do with generations and generations of racism, and inequality, and structural barriers that (at best) ended during the lives of many people still alive today.

[oldsickjames]

I think 100 may be a bit low. That seems to be consensus estimate for the Friday night torch rally, which was the appetizer for Saturday's main event. I believe they were expecting between 2,000 and 6,000 from team Nazi on Saturday but reliable counts seem unlikely for that day given how events played out (the park was dispersed before the event's scheduled start and as the splinters spread, the chaos grew).

Senators Hatch, Rubio, Gardner and others (including Paul Ryan) did a fine job with their forceful statements and condemnations.

Well, Hatch did: noting that his brother didn't die in WWII fighting Hitler to have Nazis rioting in U.S. streets today.
I'm fairly far left, but this should be Americans vs. Nazis, not partisan politics; but #45 seems to favor the Nazis (and Russia to boot) over America.
After the terrorist attack in Barcelona, #45 tweeted that the U.S. will support its partners in the world. Too bad that to him Charlottesville, VA., is not a partner of the U.S.

[CBB_Fan]

I'm just curious, and this is for all those out there that completely disagree with me, so basically most of you, but I'm curious....

1) How long does white America (not my term) have to pay for the sins of slave owners? Or how much? Perhaps if there is an answer, we can pay it and move forward as a country? I'm serious. How long do good and decent people (not hate filled criminals that still hurt others...I'm talking about folks that live their lives that all people are created equal, even if they don't all end up having equal) have to pay for the sins of their great, great, great (and further back) grandparents, or just people of their same color if they have no relation?

2) It's often said children aren't born racist and they aren't born with hate in their hearts. Does that work both ways, or only with white children?

I don't know anyone that knows anyone that was a slave. I doubt anyone here does either. It stands to pass that anyone born today doesn't know anything about slavery. I also don't question, AT ALL, that there are inequities in this country. We aren't perfect. But WE aren't perfect. I don't think WE includes only white people. We can't even have a discussion about all the problems with minorities that have NOTHING to do with evil white people. And these problems are FAR more damaging to people than the KKK, neo Nazis or the alt right (whatever the hell that is). And if you don't think so, then you're never going to and there is little hope, for all of us.

I'm not sure that is the proper framework to understand this issue. Let me explain:

The basis of the question is "when is enough enough?" It puts morality on a scale of sinned to repented, and once you reach the end you are free to go. To answer "when is enough enough" you have to accept the premise that present actions are a response to a ancient sin and that there is some spot where the sin will be paid back.

That isn't the framework I want to work in. I don't think these actions are a response to the past, I believe they are a response to the present. The proper solution isn't to take from the whites till they pay their dues, it is to have a forum for open and civil dialogue to resolve issues of every race, to constantly react to the issues of the times. No past-facing solution will be a permanent fix to institutionalized prejudice, just as fixing slavery didn't stop Jim Crow and fixing Jim Crow didn't stop segregation.

So a better question is, what are the issues we face today?

I would say the primary issues facing black Americans are incarceration, housing discrimination, and employment. Secondary issues include government surveillance, political disenfranchisement, and the growing trend of racial violence. The latter is the issue here. The statues have begun to represent the tacit approval of white supremacist groups, which have also taken deliberate steps to infiltrate law enforcement and overlook or even partake in violence.

That is why the statues have meaning now. Monuments like those statues speak to three eras: the era they memorialize, the era they were erected, and today. The growing white supremacist movement, which has heavily expanded by targeting isolated white men on Reddit and 4chan and in gaming communities, has started embracing a new Lost Cause movement with the same basic principles as the first. These Lost Cause Era statues have become beacons of approval for these radicals.

As far as slavery, it still exists today. In the most accepted form, as free prison labor (explicitly defined slavery and allowed by the 13th Amendement). There are also numerous slaves bought and sold through human trafficking, mostly as part of the sex trade. There are currently an estimated ~60,000 slaves in the USA, and more worldwide than ever before.

[pinstripers]

I think comparing our United States WWII Armed Forces to those half-masked vagina-hat-wearing rabble rousers who flew in to Charlottesville last week, is a bunch of bullshit.

[BOBB]

I'm just curious, and this is for all those out there that completely disagree with me, so basically most of you, but I'm curious....

1) How long does white America (not my term) have to pay for the sins of slave owners? Or how much? Perhaps if there is an answer, we can pay it and move forward as a country? I'm serious. How long do good and decent people (not hate filled criminals that still hurt others...I'm talking about folks that live their lives that all people are created equal, even if they don't all end up having equal) have to pay for the sins of their great, great, great (and further back) grandparents, or just people of their same color if they have no relation?

2) It's often said children aren't born racist and they aren't born with hate in their hearts. Does that work both ways, or only with white children?


I don't know anyone that knows anyone that was a slave. I doubt anyone here does either. It stands to pass that anyone born today doesn't know anything about slavery. I also don't question, AT ALL, that there are inequities in this country. We aren't perfect. But WE aren't perfect. I don't think WE includes only white people. We can't even have a discussion about all the problems with minorities that have NOTHING to do with evil white people. And these problems are FAR more damaging to people than the KKK, neo Nazis or the alt right (whatever the hell that is). And if you don't think so, then you're never going to and there is little hope, for all of us.

One could argue that we have never really paid. Slavery was followed by Jim Crow. We didn't begin even paying lip service to equality as a society until the '60's. Schools have resegregated and funding and outcomes are heavily slanted. I support equal opportunity, not equal outcomes, but I don't believe the opportunities are yet equal. Many of the attempts to make things more equal have been hamfisted at best. The lower class of whites cerrainly haven't benefited in many ways from their white privilege.

No doubt minority children are also taught discrimination and bias. Also no doubt that certain actions of black society are self-defeating. However, a simple look at the differences in drug sentencing would show you that black peoples' bad actions have a different set of consequences than the average white person. This is true throughout school and police and work and restaurants and shopping, etc... Enough to jaundice a reasonable person's view of white America.

I have no solutions. I do agree that focusing on our differences is not the likely path to harmony.

[WuDrWu]

I don't know what the rest of the country wants. And I don't even purport to know what the majority of people want. I do know that your post itself says "there are inequities in this country," but then you state "all the problems with minorities that have NOTHING to do with evil white people." I'd be interested in hearing what problems you believe there are that have "NOTHING" to do with generations and generations of racism, and inequality, and structural barriers that (at best) ended during the lives of many people still alive today.

Sigh

What do 80%+ of minority children being born into a single family home have to do with any other race? 4 out of 5 children born into a terribly uphill situation from day 1. How do you expect them to be able to compete in a world where they have so many challenges from day 1? How is that the fault of white America?

THAT IS PROBLEM #1 SIR. Don't abandon your children and life is substantially better. And it's not problem #1. It's problem 1-99.

If you want to argue that it's an issue with government encouraging it with program after program after program disguised as a safety net, then you're making my argument for me.

[ShockingButTrue]

Sigh

What do 80%+ of minority children being born into a single family home have to do with any other race? 4 out of 5 children born into a terribly uphill situation from day 1. How do you expect them to be able to compete in a world where they have so many challenges from day 1? How is that the fault of white America?

THAT IS PROBLEM #1 SIR. Don't abandon your children and life is substantially better. And it's not problem #1. It's problem 1-99.

If you want to argue that it's an issue with government encouraging it with program after program after program disguised as a safety net, then you're making my argument for me.

That's the kind of argument E. Holder would say you're a coward for wanting to have, and not the other way around...

[jdshock]

Sigh

Can we stop this? You made a post asking for input from people that disagree with you and then you get one and you start off your response with "sigh?" Seriously? It's the second time I've seen it this week in this forum. You actually typed out the most derisive word you could to show how exasperated you are that I would have the audacity to comment back the way I did... when you were the one that asked for thoughts on the subject.

What do 80%+ of minority children being born into a single family home have to do with any other race? 4 out of 5 children born into a terribly uphill situation from day 1. How do you expect them to be able to compete in a world where they have so many challenges from day 1? How is that the fault of white America?

THAT IS PROBLEM #1 SIR. Don't abandon your children and life is substantially better. And it's not problem #1. It's problem 1-99.

If you want to argue that it's an issue with government encouraging it with program after program after program disguised as a safety net, then you're making my argument for me.

Let's assume that life is substantially better for families with two parents. I agree as a general proposition. I don't know that I'd say it's 1-99, but it's definitely a major problem. But you fail to look at any causes of family instability that might be external sources. Poverty would almost certainly be a major factor in family instability. If black people are more likely to be in poverty today because of yesterday's racism, and poverty is a cause of family instability, then yesterday's racism would in fact play a part in the exact problem you're addressing.

Here are some interesting articles on the subject:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-whites-blacks-families-moynihan-report-perspec-0226-jm-20150225-column.html

https://www.vox.com/2015/3/26/8253495/moynihan-report-liberal-backlash

I found this one particularly interesting because it shows the probability of divorce correlated with job turnover rates: https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/

Edit to add: This is all almost totally ignoring the suggestion that racism today might still play a part.

[WuDrWu]

One could argue that we have never really paid. Slavery was followed by Jim Crow. We didn't begin even paying lip service to equality as a society until the '60's. Schools have resegregated and funding and outcomes are heavily slanted. I support equal opportunity, not equal outcomes, but I don't believe the opportunities are yet equal. Many of the attempts to make things more equal have been hamfisted at best. The lower class of whites cerrainly haven't benefited in many ways from their white privilege.

No doubt minority children are also taught discrimination and bias. Also no doubt that certain actions of black society are self-defeating. However, a simple look at the differences in drug sentencing would show you that black peoples' bad actions have a different set of consequences than the average white person. This is true throughout school and police and work and restaurants and shopping, etc... Enough to jaundice a reasonable person's view of white America.

I have no solutions. I do agree that focusing on our differences is not the likely path to harmony.

Excellent post. I want to try something different. More of the same isn't helping. All it's doing is growing Government.

I'm not sure I buy the sentencing argument. I think there are differing drug items that need to be addressed but that's a different story. But a rich kid convicted of buying a joint isn't the same as a poor black kid selling it other black kids, so I don't think it's an apples to apples thing, BUT I don't know. There's this idea that 1000s of innocent black men are in jail for doing nothing, and NOTHING could be further from the truth. I get a little tired of that argument BUT again, numbers are numbers and I know what I study, not everything.

If you don't work hard in school, if you're a problem child, if you don't speak clearly and learn to be polite and work hard...no matter what color your skin is you're never getting out of poverty, not in this country. There isn't enough wealth and even if you gave it away, it would be gone in a year.

Everyone wants to find an excuse. LOOK INWARD and we'll fix about 90% of the problems.

I agree we shouldn't focus on our differences. It's killing our country. But unfortunately, focusing on our similarities just expands our debt. It's what politicians do.

[ShockerPrez]

Poverty isnt about race, its about culture. If poverty was about race, then only a certain race would be poor. There are plenty of poor whites in rural America who also have a ****'s chance in this country. And you can look at their parent's and see that there is probably only one as well.

Those cultures the kids are brought up in are not helpful in preparing them to succeed in our country's overall dominant culture. If there is no positive adult influence in a child's life, they will gravitate to an influence that probably will not benefit their life in the long term.

It happens across all races.

[ShockCrazy]

Poverty isnt about race, its about culture. If poverty was about race, then only a certain race would be poor. There are plenty of poor whites in rural America who also have a ****'s chance in this country. And you can look at their parent's and see that there is probably only one as well.

Those cultures the kids are brought up in are not helpful in preparing them to succeed in our country's overall dominant culture. If there is no positive adult influence in a child's life, they will gravitate to an influence that probably will not benefit their life in the long term.

It happens across all races.

I would like to point out only one race unequivocally and universally was poor with one single starting point. Slavery ended but that didn't convert any wealth upon African Americans. African Americans were freed and they suddenly found themselves poor, uneducated, and there wasn't a real push to give them a hand up until much later. In fact most of the time a lot of effort was made to ensure neither of those things changed.

[Kel Varnsen]

I would like to point out only one race unequivocally and universally was poor with one single starting point. Slavery ended but that didn't convert any wealth upon African Americans. African Americans were freed and they suddenly found themselves poor, uneducated, and there wasn't a real push to give them a hand up until much later. In fact most of the time a lot of effort was made to ensure neither of those things changed.

I generally agree. And what is your policy prescription going forward to alleviate those problems?

[ShockCrazy]

I generally agree. And what is your policy prescription going forward to alleviate those problems?

Not sure. It's certainly a complicated issue with many factors, but there definitely needs to be more done. One important one would be criminal justice reform, the system is not set up to prevent recidivism. It demonizes and creates career criminals of non-violent offenders. It also doesn't seek to rehabilitate anyone. Then there are other things regard education that need to be address, but again it's difficult to find the right answer but we certainly could be doing more. Overall I was just pointing out all things are not created equal, while yes poverty is a cultural, African Americans as a cultural were universally placed into poverty.