U. Mich Students Demand Segregation

[jdshock]

Thanks. I guess I never really paid much attention to who was white and who was black as far as Big Band and Swing Band music was written by. Given the strong influence of blacks as band leaders, band members, and singers of this music, I always assumed (probably rightly) that there was a fair share of blacks who wrote the music they played. I didn't care whether they were black or white. I would think a high school band director would have to go out of his way not to have included this music.

I don't know you personally, so I have no way to know what your background or anything like that is. But I just want to add one point.

I'm white, and I never seem to notice when I'm in a room with only other white people. I was in a big meeting a few days ago and didn't notice until an hour in that everyone in the room was white. The next day, I was in a meeting in which I was the only white person. I noticed immediately. It's not like I was nervous or uncomfortable or anything, but I noticed immediately. Most white people I've talked to would say the same.

That experience makes me think I'd never even notice if every composer used in every piece of music I ever played was white. That makes it hard to show non-white students music is a welcoming activity. It might not be that hard to find music from non-white composers, but these band directors felt like they had very little music from composers that weren't white. I don't see anything wrong with making an effort to include more of those composers, whether that is because (1) there actually aren't that many non-white composers or (2) because they historically have gone out of their way to not include those composers as you suggest.

[ShockTalk]

I don't know you personally, so I have no way to know what your background or anything like that is. But I just want to add one point.

I'm white, and I never seem to notice when I'm in a room with only other white people. I was in a big meeting a few days ago and didn't notice until an hour in that everyone in the room was white. The next day, I was in a meeting in which I was the only white person. I noticed immediately. It's not like I was nervous or uncomfortable or anything, but I noticed immediately. Most white people I've talked to would say the same.

That experience makes me think I'd never even notice if every composer used in every piece of music I ever played was white. That makes it hard to show non-white students music is a welcoming activity. It might not be that hard to find music from non-white composers, but these band directors felt like they had very little music from composers that weren't white. I don't see anything wrong with making an effort to include more of those composers, whether that is because (1) there actually aren't that many non-white composers or (2) because they historically have gone out of their way to not include those composers as you suggest.

Addressing the last part of your post, I have no idea if it's #1 and I'm not saying it was #2 (hoping its not) because they were intentionally excluded. I'm making an assumption that high school Stage Bands, and their directors, should, through the natural progression of these styles of music come across and have played music by black composers simply because of their big influence and presence in these styles of music. I played the trumpet in high school and was in the school's Stage Band. When I thought of famous trumpet players back then, it was Louis Armstrong, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, Clark Terry, Doc Serverinson, Herb Albert, and Al Hirt. Famous Big Band leaders, Glenn Miller, Count Basie, Dorsey Brothers, Duke Ellington, Gene Krupa, and Cab Calloway. Yes, there is a lot more of these, but you can see the black influence mixed in. Heck, I can only name you one great xylophonist (actually vibraphonist) and that is Lionel Hampton.

As for the rest of your post, there is a huge difference between "conscious" racism/sexism/so forth and "unconscious" racism which I believe everyone has in varying degrees. I hope I have lived a life, and will continue so, that no one believes I'm consciously racist. However, one of my biggest hurdles today is what @wufan: said in his post: "What's actually sad to me is that we have to make distinctions at all based on sex/race, and that those decisions are highly politicized by both sides."

I see things like Black Students Demand Segregated Spaces From White Students and I question how this works with integration. If one saw an article that reversed black and white in the title what would one think? To me, you cannot have it both ways, both integrated spaces and segregated spaces for blacks and not allow the same for all races which I view as defeating the purpose of true integration.

[ShockingButTrue]

I don't know you personally, so I have no way to know what your background or anything like that is. But I just want to add one point.

I'm white, and I never seem to notice when I'm in a room with only other white people. I was in a big meeting a few days ago and didn't notice until an hour in that everyone in the room was white. The next day, I was in a meeting in which I was the only white person. I noticed immediately. It's not like I was nervous or uncomfortable or anything, but I noticed immediately. Most white people I've talked to would say the same.

That experience makes me think I'd never even notice if every composer used in every piece of music I ever played was white. That makes it hard to show non-white students music is a welcoming activity. It might not be that hard to find music from non-white composers, but these band directors felt like they had very little music from composers that weren't white. I don't see anything wrong with making an effort to include more of those composers, whether that is because (1) there actually aren't that many non-white composers or (2) because they historically have gone out of their way to not include those composers as you suggest.

I thought you did a wonderful job explaining a perfectly normal identification process. It happens all the time everywhere regardless of race, sex, thought, etc. Well done.

That why it falls on deaf ears when an AG says other's are cowards for not wanting to address issues, or engage in dialogue, of racism. Context is everything.

[pinstripers]

And I'd just buy the stuff I liked and never consider whether the composer was gay, or tall, or Hispanic, or left-handed.

[im4wsu]

And I'd just buy the stuff I liked and never consider whether the composer was gay, or tall, or Hispanic, or left-handed.

That's supply and demand and is verboten in America anymore

[shock]

I have no idea if I'm playing stuff from a white guy or a black guy. And honestly, I don't care. I could give two shits who wrote it as long as it gets people off. I know who they are, how awesome the music is, and thats about it. Who listens to Hunting Wabbits and has time to wonder if the guy that wrote it is white or black? I have never thought of that because it has no bearing on how i play my part or how the piece sounds.

I have no problem with the band director buying music from non-white composers. But subjecting his students to the politics of it is the ideology that has this country as divided as we are. Good teachers keep personal politics out of the classroom.

[SB Shock]

Top Student Demands

1. Abolish English classes that feature white male poets.

2. Implement segregated safe spaces.

3. No more cross-ethnic food/song/dance/haircuts

4. If you are white you can't support BLM

5. College needs to police "Microaggressions" [“racist, anti-black, transphobic, cissexist, misogynistic, ableist, homophobic, Islamophobic, and otherwise oppressive behavior on campus.”]

6. Get rid of grades and test.

“I’m paying to have a support network, academically and mentally. I can’t be expected to do well in class if I’m depressed and have anxiety. If the school is worsening my anxiety, that’s their problem and they need to be held accountable for that.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/07/the-craziest-demands-of-college-kids-in-2016.html

[shocka khan]

I don't know you personally, so I have no way to know what your background or anything like that is. But I just want to add one point.

I'm white, and I never seem to notice when I'm in a room with only other white people. I was in a big meeting a few days ago and didn't notice until an hour in that everyone in the room was white. The next day, I was in a meeting in which I was the only white person. I noticed immediately. It's not like I was nervous or uncomfortable or anything, but I noticed immediately. Most white people I've talked to would say the same.

That experience makes me think I'd never even notice if every composer used in every piece of music I ever played was white. That makes it hard to show non-white students music is a welcoming activity. It might not be that hard to find music from non-white composers, but these band directors felt like they had very little music from composers that weren't white. I don't see anything wrong with making an effort to include more of those composers, whether that is because (1) there actually aren't that many non-white composers or (2) because they historically have gone out of their way to not include those composers as you suggest.

+1. I have a friend from Haiti. Her parents were so poor she had to sleep on the floor in a thatch hut growing up. She lifted herself up by her bootstraps and is not only an American citizen, but also passed her bar exams. I have attended several parties at her house where I was the only white person there. It felt a little odd at first, but all her guests were very intelligent and went out of their way to engage me and make me feel welcome. Oh, and for anyone who's interested, she also voted for Trump.

[ShockingButTrue]

+1. I have a friend from Haiti. Her parents were so poor she had to sleep on the floor in a thatch hut growing up. She lifted herself up by her bootstraps and is not only an American citizen, but also passed her bar exams. I have attended several parties at her house where I was the only white person there. It felt a little odd at first, but all her guests were very intelligent and went out of their way to engage me and make me feel welcome. Oh, and for anyone who's interested, she also voted for Trump.

Glad to hear this. Authentic and not unusual at all. I've experienced this as well.

The uncomfortable glare of "privilege", on the other hand, is exclusive to neither ethnicity or creed, irrespective of Holder's pietous entreaties.

[RoyalShock]

I read the NPR article. What I saw were allegations of publishing discrimination, stereotypes and ideological segregation with absolutely nothing to back them up.

I'm not saying there isn't evidence, just that we really have no idea. The article doesn't help, passing along the director's and student's opinions unchallenged.

While it would be nice if band (and jazz band) appealed to a wider range of students, I believe there are cultural factors at play, not ideological. The stereotypes aren't by gender or race, but social status (band geeks). My high school (the same one my son attends) has a highly respected and successful band and marching band program, with 20% student-body participation. Good luck finding more than one or two non-freshmen football players in band. They think it's uncool. It's been that way since my older son was there in the late 2000s. Ironically, back in the 80s we had several upperclassmen football players in band when it wasn't nearly as popular, respected or successful.

This reminds me of the push to get more girls interested in STEM studies and fields. Girls just aren't going to be as interested in those subjects in the same numbers as boys. It's how we're wired as male and female and there's nothing wrong with it. Yes, there's certainly some bias that needs work. There always will be in any field that is dominated by one sex. FWIW, in our 9-member software development team there are three women, one of them our manager, and one an immigrant from Mexico. In little-ol' Hutchinson, KS.

[jdshock]

This reminds me of the push to get more girls interested in STEM studies and fields. Girls just aren't going to be as interested in those subjects in the same numbers as boys. It's how we're wired as male and female and there's nothing wrong with it. Yes, there's certainly some bias that needs work. There always will be in any field that is dominated by one sex. FWIW, in our 9-member software development team there are three women, one of them our manager, and one an immigrant from Mexico. In little-ol' Hutchinson, KS.

Ooooof... come on. There's no biological reason a woman would be less interested in science than a man. If women don't pursue science, it's because of "cultural" type things that you suggested above: they don't see female leaders in the sciences, they aren't encouraged to pursue STEM fields, etc.

And "cultural" factors should be addressed. That's specifically what this band program attempts to do. It is attempting to appeal to non-white students by encouraging them that non-white composers exist and have come before them.

[RoyalShock]

Ooooof... come on. There's no biological reason a woman would be less interested in science than a man. If women don't pursue science, it's because of "cultural" type things that you suggested above: they don't see female leaders in the sciences, they aren't encouraged to pursue STEM fields, etc.

And "cultural" factors should be addressed. That's specifically what this band program attempts to do. It is attempting to appeal to non-white students by encouraging them that non-white composers exist and have come before them.

Then they should approach the issue as cultural instead of using identity politic buzzwords, which causes people to question their motives and write articles like the linked one.

My point on girls being less inclined to have an interest STEM fields is based in point #3 of this article from NPR:

3. Sex-linked interest preferences are not mere artifacts of socialization

One interpretation of the sex difference in STEM careers (and the workforce in general) is that females are pressured into areas that are more “gender appropriate,” not that they are choosing to study what is intrinsically more interesting to them.

For example, former American Association of University Women senior researcher Andresse St. Rose, one of the authors of ”Why So Few? Women in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics,” puts it this way:

Another common but somewhat misguided explanation for female underrepresentation in STEM is that while girls and young women may be just as able as young men, they are not as interested in science and engineering. From early adolescence, girls report less interest in math and science careers than boys do (Turner et al. 2008), and among children identified as mathematically precocious, girls were less likely than boys to pursue STEM careers as adults (Lubinski and Benbow 2006). Girls’ lower reported interest in STEM may be partially explained by social attitudes and beliefs about whether it is appropriate for girls to pursue these subjects and careers.

The problem with this “blank slate” interpretation of gender differences is that it doesn’t jibe with results of developmental studies. Newborn girls prefer to look at faces while newborn boys prefer to look at mechanical stimuli (such as mobiles). When it comes to toys, a consistent finding is that boys (and juvenile male monkeys) strongly prefer to play with mechanical toys over plush toys or dolls, while girls (and female juvenile monkeys) show equivalent interest in the two. (See this for summary of this research.) These sex-linked preferences emerge in human development long before any significant socialization can have taken place. And they exist in juvenile non-human primates that are not exposed to human gender-specific socialization efforts.

It is not difficult to see how such early emerging preferences can end up shaping career choices later on: Women tend to gravitate toward fields that focus on living things and agents, men to fields that focus on objects.

[wufan]

Ooooof... come on. There's no biological reason a woman would be less interested in science than a man. If women don't pursue science, it's because of "cultural" type things that you suggested above: they don't see female leaders in the sciences, they aren't encouraged to pursue STEM fields, etc.

And "cultural" factors should be addressed. That's specifically what this band program attempts to do. It is attempting to appeal to non-white students by encouraging them that non-white composers exist and have come before them.

There is absolutely some biological predispositions that exist in the sexes when views as a population rather than an individual. In my view, there's very little reason to promote any specific activity to any specific "group". If you are good at something, and you like it, then go do it. Identity be damned!