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Chelsea Manning commutation

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  • #31
    In contrast to this board, I am general in favor of whistleblowers. A look through history:

    1515-1552: Bartolomé de las Casas becomes the first noted whistleblower. He advocated to King Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor on rights for natives in the West-Indies
    1777: Samuel Shaw blew the whistle on the torture of British POWs by Commodore Esek Hopkins, leading to the creation of the first whistleblower protection law
    1893: Edmund Dene Morel brought to light the brutal conditions of Belgian King Leopold II's autocratic reign in the Congo (do NOT look this up if you don't want to have a bad day)

    1933: Smedley Butler. I'm going to spend more time on this, because you deserve to know who this man was. When he died, he was the most decorated Marine in US history and advanced to the highest rank in the Marine Corps at the time (major general). He is an elite club of Medal of Honor winners. He is in the even more elite club of men who have won two Medals of Honor. He has 3 other medals for heroism, and 16 medals overall. Why is he on a list of "traitors?"

    Before we get to that, let's go through a historical odd tale. In additional to what I'll talk about below, Butler went before a congressional committee and talked about the Business Plot. He claimed that wealthy businessmen approached him asking him to lead a fascist veterans association and overthrow Franklin D. Roosevelt in a coup. The scheme was concocted by Gerald C. MacGuire and Bill Doyle, and while never a credible threat to the country later historians did come to the conclusion the MacGuire likely did have such a scheme (though not the resources and ability to pull it off). But that is not what makes him a whistleblower.

    He is on this list for his book "War is a Racket."

    I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
    Back to your regularly scheduled broadcast:

    1942: Jan Karski, Polish resistance fighter, meets with FDR, the UK Foreign Secretary, and the Polish shadow government to discuss witnessing concerning conditions for the Jewish people and the extermination camps. His report was not taken seriously.

    1967: Peter Buxtun reveals the Tuskegee syphilis experiment. With the promise of giving away free healthcare, 600 black men in rural Alabama signed up for an unethical study by the Public Health Service and Tuskegee College. They were told they were being treated for bad blood, never being told they had syphilis and never receiving treatment or the free healthcare promised. Penicillin had been known as an effective cure for syphilis since the 1940s, and the program didn't end until 1972.

    1971: Daniel Elsburg leaks the Pentagon Papers. This revealed that the US government had enlarged the Vietnam War by secretly bombing Cambodia and Laos, raiding north Vietnam, and other actions. It revealed a motive for the War of containing China, not helping our Vietnamese allies. It showed that four US administrations had misled the public. Eisenhower worked against the Geneva Accords, JFK knew of plans to dispose of Ngo Dinh Diem, Johnson had plans to expand the war while campaigning on ending it.

    1971: Frank Serpico reports on systemic corruption in the NY police department, with millions in bribes and payoffs.

    1971: Perry Fellwock reveals the existence of an ultra-secretive US organization and its worldwide surveillance network. That organization was the NSA.

    1971: Vladimir Bukovsky reveals how the USSR used psychiatry to imprison political dissidents in mental hospitals.

    1972: W. Mark Felt, aka Deep Felt, leaks information on Nixon's involvement in the Watergate scandal.

    1973: A. Ernest Fitzgerald reports on cost overruns on Lochkeed's C-54 cargo plane. He later finds out about being the well known $400 hammer and $600 toilet seats.

    1986: Mordechai Vanunu reveals Israel's clandestine nuclear program.

    1992: Mark Whitacre reveals a price-fixing cartel at Archer Daniels Midland.

    1996: Jeffrey Wigand shows that tobacco company Brown & Williamson deliberately manipulated nicotine levels to create addicts.

    1998: Marc Hodler reveals the Olympic bid scandal for 2002 Winter Olympics.

    I could go on to the many, many more in the 2000s and 2010s but I think that I have made this post long enough. Whistleblowers are usually hated and reviled upon blowing the whistle, but history almost always shows that if they are truthful their actions were justified and to greater good of the public. I believe this is the case with Chelsea Manning, and I believe the actions taken were appropriate. Of note, I draw a difference between Manning and Snowden/Assange.

    Manning pled guilty. Manning's statement at the trial: "I am sorry that my actions hurt people. I'm sorry that they hurt the United States. I am sorry for the unintended consequences of my actions. When I made these decisions I believed I was going to help people, not hurt people." Manning did not flee the country, and accepted guilt. While I believe whistleblowing is usually morally right, I also believe it is legally right to accept the consequences for your actions if you break the law. Snowden fled the country to avoid prosecution and continued acting in Russia to the US's detriment. Regardless of the correctness of his leak, his actions afterward were wrong.

    Assange published Manning's leaks, but he isn't even American (Australian). He's been accused of sexual assault and as far as I'm concerned there is a big difference between a US citizen whistleblowing because they believe it to be right, and a foreign citizen publishing that information because they believe it might hurt the US. Good will is vital. I do not believe Assange has that good will or the moral justification necessary for whistleblowers to be accepted.

    Given the fact that Manning plead guilty and did serve time (in arguably inhumane conditions), I believe a commutation and not a pardon is acceptable. She was guilty, and still is. A pardon makes no sense, because the crime was real. But we should recognize the difference between her actions and those of whistleblowers that flee the country to avoid prosecution, and perhaps aren't acting out of the same altruism. If Snowden comes back or gets caught, he should expect to spend the rest of his life in jail, but we can acknowledge both the illegality of Manning's actions and the correct way she dealt with the aftermath.

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    • #32
      ^I like to use google to support my arguments too.

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      • #33
        Corporate whisteblowers = Releasing 750,000 classified documents??

        I'm not against releasing private corporations documents to expose corruption or non classified government emails either.
        I'm all for it.

        To release 750,000 classified documents, there better be a damn good reason.

        What great cover up or injustice was Manning exposing again?
        "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Better have some sugar and water too, or else your lemonade will suck!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ShockerPrez View Post
          What great cover up or injustice was Manning exposing again?

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          • #35
            I stand corrected, how he knew all that stuff was going on and was able to expose it is astounding. And also ensuring that our enemies gleaned nothing vital at all was keen on his part. Glad he's free now. Justice is served.
            "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Better have some sugar and water too, or else your lemonade will suck!

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            • #36
              Originally posted by ShockerPrez View Post
              I stand corrected, how he knew all that stuff was going on and was able to expose it is astounding. And also ensuring that our enemies gleaned nothing vital at all was keen on his part. Glad he's free now. Justice is served.
              Who is this "HE" you refer to?
              "You Don't Have to Play a Perfect Game. Your Best is Good Enough."

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ShockerPrez View Post
                I stand corrected, how he knew all that stuff was going on and was able to expose it is astounding. And also ensuring that our enemies gleaned nothing vital at all was keen on his part. Glad he's free now. Justice is served.
                I think you're being sarcastic, right? If so, I'm just trying to say I see both sides of the issue. You asked what Manning exposed and I responded.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ShockerPrez View Post
                  Corporate whisteblowers = Releasing 750,000 classified documents??

                  I'm not against releasing private corporations documents to expose corruption or non classified government emails either.
                  I'm all for it.

                  To release 750,000 classified documents, there better be a damn good reason.

                  What great cover up or injustice was Manning exposing again?
                  Literally the first 6 whistleblowers mentioned were exposing military or government secrets. Whether it be the ill treatment of natives, abuse of POWs, coordination between business and the military, extermination camps, the experiments by the government on civilians, or secret actions to expand the Vietnam war none can be described as "corporate whistleblowers."

                  Manning leaked information about the July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike; the Granai airstrike; 250,000 diplomatic cables; and 500,000 army reports known as the Iraq War logs and Afghan War logs.

                  The July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike showed a helicopter shooting unarmed men, including killing Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen. Another Reuters journalist, Saeed Chmagh, was injured. When he attempted to crawl away, the helicopter pilot expressed discontent that he couldn't shoot an unarmed man. When a family in a van stopped to take Chmagh to a hospital, the helicopter received permission to fire and killed Chmagh along with the father of the family and injured the two daughters.

                  The Granai airstrike is also known as the Granai massacre, and refers to the killing of approximately 86 to 147 Afghan civilians by an airstrike by a US Air Force B-1 Bomber on May 4, 2009. Afghanistan claims that 140 were killed, 22 of which were adult men and 90 of which were children. The US claims 60 insurgents and 20 children.

                  The Iraq War documents show 15,000 unreported civilian deaths; that US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers; that US troops classified civilian deaths as enemy casualties; one incident of "the US military cleared an Apache helicopter gunship to open fire on Iraqi insurgents who were trying to surrender;" that US troops killed almost 700 civilians for coming too close to checkpoints, including pregnant women and the mentally ill; and other issues.

                  The Afghan War documents likewise show civilian deaths, foreign support for the Taliban and many incidents of unnecessary action by troops. "The marines made a frenzied escape [from the scene of the bombing], opening fire with automatic weapons as they tore down a six-mile stretch of highway, hitting almost anyone in their way – teenage girls in the fields, motorists in their cars, old men as they walked along the road. Nineteen unarmed civilians were killed and 50 wounded." A U.S. patrol machine-gunned a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers. CIA paramilitaries fired on a civilian man who was running from them. The man, Shum Khan, was deaf and mute and did not hear their warnings. U.S. special forces dropped six 2,000 lb bombs on a compound where they believed a "high-value individual" was hiding, after "ensuring there were no innocent Afghans in the surrounding area". A senior U.S. commander reported that 150 Taliban had been killed. Locals, however, reported that up to 300 civilians had died. Polish troops mortared the village of Nangar Khel, killing five people – including a woman and her baby – in what The Guardian described as an apparent revenge attack shortly after experiencing an IED explosion. Contractors for the U.S. Department of Defense had hired local male child prostitutes. etc.

                  You can judge for yourself if the deaths of hundreds to thousands of foreign civilians and the other actions I mention were worth revealing.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jdshock View Post
                    I think you're being sarcastic, right? If so, I'm just trying to say I see both sides of the issue. You asked what Manning exposed and I responded.
                    No, and thank you for the info. Some of that is worthwhile to know. My issue that Im sure that he had no idea what he was leaking, whereas a whistleblower is focused. He was reckless and his actions were illegal and could have possibly put people in harms way. I would not classify him as a whistleblower.
                    "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Better have some sugar and water too, or else your lemonade will suck!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CBB_Fan View Post
                      Literally the first 6 whistleblowers mentioned were exposing military or government secrets. Whether it be the ill treatment of natives, abuse of POWs, coordination between business and the military, extermination camps, the experiments by the government on civilians, or secret actions to expand the Vietnam war none can be described as "corporate whistleblowers."

                      Manning leaked information about the July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike; the Granai airstrike; 250,000 diplomatic cables; and 500,000 army reports known as the Iraq War logs and Afghan War logs.

                      The July 12, 2007 Baghdad airstrike showed a helicopter shooting unarmed men, including killing Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Eldeen. Another Reuters journalist, Saeed Chmagh, was injured. When he attempted to crawl away, the helicopter pilot expressed discontent that he couldn't shoot an unarmed man. When a family in a van stopped to take Chmagh to a hospital, the helicopter received permission to fire and killed Chmagh along with the father of the family and injured the two daughters.

                      The Granai airstrike is also known as the Granai massacre, and refers to the killing of approximately 86 to 147 Afghan civilians by an airstrike by a US Air Force B-1 Bomber on May 4, 2009. Afghanistan claims that 140 were killed, 22 of which were adult men and 90 of which were children. The US claims 60 insurgents and 20 children.

                      The Iraq War documents show 15,000 unreported civilian deaths; that US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers; that US troops classified civilian deaths as enemy casualties; one incident of "the US military cleared an Apache helicopter gunship to open fire on Iraqi insurgents who were trying to surrender;" that US troops killed almost 700 civilians for coming too close to checkpoints, including pregnant women and the mentally ill; and other issues.

                      The Afghan War documents likewise show civilian deaths, foreign support for the Taliban and many incidents of unnecessary action by troops. "The marines made a frenzied escape [from the scene of the bombing], opening fire with automatic weapons as they tore down a six-mile stretch of highway, hitting almost anyone in their way – teenage girls in the fields, motorists in their cars, old men as they walked along the road. Nineteen unarmed civilians were killed and 50 wounded." A U.S. patrol machine-gunned a bus, wounding or killing 15 of its passengers. CIA paramilitaries fired on a civilian man who was running from them. The man, Shum Khan, was deaf and mute and did not hear their warnings. U.S. special forces dropped six 2,000 lb bombs on a compound where they believed a "high-value individual" was hiding, after "ensuring there were no innocent Afghans in the surrounding area". A senior U.S. commander reported that 150 Taliban had been killed. Locals, however, reported that up to 300 civilians had died. Polish troops mortared the village of Nangar Khel, killing five people – including a woman and her baby – in what The Guardian described as an apparent revenge attack shortly after experiencing an IED explosion. Contractors for the U.S. Department of Defense had hired local male child prostitutes. etc.

                      You can judge for yourself if the deaths of hundreds to thousands of foreign civilians and the other actions I mention were worth revealing.
                      And PVT Manning just knew all about this stuff and deemed it wasnt being pursued thoroughly enough, so he had to turn it over to a foreign national?
                      "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Better have some sugar and water too, or else your lemonade will suck!

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