State of Kansas Finances

[wufan]

I believe that the food/lunch program is a federal program and not a part of what was being discussed.

Additionally, if someone did the research, I believe that they would find out that the demographic at Coleman, Marshall, Hadley, Curtis, Meade, and Wilbur (for examples) has totally changed in the past 30 years. Now, those demographics are probably similar to Andover, Maize, Goddard, etc.

Good point, and while it is somewhat off topic, one of the reasons the school is spending less per child now than in 2007 is because the federal gov cut funding to schools. While the children in Kansas are receiving less funding per child, the state of Kansas is spending more per child than ever before.

So, I would ask, is it appropriate to cut funding for education to reallocate money to feed working class children?

[shockmonster]

[QUOTE=WuDrWu;659734]Why does it have to be "go hungry and roam the streets"? That's the only other option? This kind of thinking is what's killing us.

I think you might have missed (some or all of) my point. ANY kid can go get 2 meals a day. ANY kid. My kid doesn't need it...but she can go get it. Is that the way it should be?
lYou do realize that I could send my kid to Collegiate for almost that amount? Certainly to any Catholic school, Trinity or Independent. Private schooling for $12,000. Class size would be about 2/3 or less on average.

We, as an American society, cater to and measure ourselves against the least common denominator, and that HAS to change. We pull down so many people it is frightening.[Quote]
Doc
Do those schools you mentioned educate mentally disturbed, autistic, and children with extreme academic deficiencies? The state closed almost all of the hospitals in Winfield, etc. that used to house these children (they weren't educated at all-it was more of a warehouse environment)? Does Collegiate respond to the needs of children who roam the streets and are breaking laws, some as young as 5-6 yrs. old? How about the 3,000 homeless children who live in hotels on South Broadway or downtown Kellogg? How about the gang members on North Broadway that are in middle/high school? The courts don't have places to put them snymore so they go back home, to foster homes (who often don't want them either), or to group homes. You see, drugs, teen pregnancy, and bad behavior are a problem in today's society. Good values are no longer the norm. So schools bring up children. I'm a lucky guy who knows a lot of fine teachers who for little amounts of money, who pay more out of their own pockets, and rarely see salary increases, take care of the "least of these" (as Jesus said).

[Aargh]

Kansas missed their revenue estimates for May by $74.5 million. This is after they had lowered the estimates for May two times. Missed personal income tax collections by 22%. Missed corporate tax collections by 42%.

That leaves Kansas with an estimated ending balance of negative $50 million at the end of this month, when the fiscal year ends. All that needs done is to cut an additional $50 mill in spending in the next 30 days.

The unemployment rate keeps dropping. The number of people working also keeps dropping. That indicates we're probably losing population.

If estimates for collections of personal income taxes are off by 22% (that's an INCREDIBLE miss!), that indicates the people working are not earning as much as they were expected to earn. Either that or another 20,000 or 30,000 have figured out how to be an LLC and completely avoid personal income taxes.

I have a couple of very good friends with substantial incomes from their investments. They do not work or have jobs or employees. They became LLC's, instead of people, in the eyes of the Kansas Dept. of Revenue.

Speaking of people for whom the tax exemption was not intended. I see that Brad Pistotnik has used his relief from paying state income taxes to build his, as he calls it, "shiny new offices". That and running ads touting himself as "the bull" while running video of himself riding a steer.

[wufan]

[QUOTE=shockmonster;659757][QUOTE=WuDrWu;659734]Why does it have to be "go hungry and roam the streets"? That's the only other option? This kind of thinking is what's killing us.

I think you might have missed (some or all of) my point. ANY kid can go get 2 meals a day. ANY kid. My kid doesn't need it...but she can go get it. Is that the way it should be?
lYou do realize that I could send my kid to Collegiate for almost that amount? Certainly to any Catholic school, Trinity or Independent. Private schooling for $12,000. Class size would be about 2/3 or less on average.

We, as an American society, cater to and measure ourselves against the least common denominator, and that HAS to change. We pull down so many people it is frightening.

Doc
Do those schools you mentioned educate mentally disturbed, autistic, and children with extreme academic deficiencies? The state closed almost all of the hospitals in Winfield, etc. that used to house these children (they weren't educated at all-it was more of a warehouse environment)? Does Collegiate respond to the needs of children who roam the streets and are breaking laws, some as young as 5-6 yrs. old? How about the 3,000 homeless children who live in hotels on South Broadway or downtown Kellogg? How about the gang members on North Broadway that are in middle/high school? The courts don't have places to put them snymore so they go back home, to foster homes (who often don't want them either), or to group homes. You see, drugs, teen pregnancy, and bad behavior are a problem in today's society. Good values are no longer the norm. So schools bring up children. I'm a lucky guy who knows a lot of fine teachers who for little amounts of money, who pay more out of their own pockets, and rarely see salary increases, take care of the "least of these" (as Jesus said).

I love and respect teachers, but can we stop with the "under paid", "no raises", "money out of their own pocket" stuff? They are compensated very well when you look at the hours worked vs other occupations. ~ $48K. They work ~ 75% of days that other professions work. A civil engineer earns ~ $70K. When compared day for day, it's $64K vs $70K. Other professional occupations pay less.

No "raises". I spoke to my sister (the teacher) about this. They get annual cost of living increases, and incremental pay increases with increased training. In my industry, you pretty much don't get a raise without a promotion. Cost of living increases are granted 2/3 of years. It's pretty standard stuff.

Money out of pocket...talk to someone in sales.

Teachers are generally good, hard working individuals, but let's stop pretending that they are martyrs for our children.

[Aargh]

When discussing wages of jobs, I like to use this as a measuring stick:

How much would you have to have to do the job? That generally bumps up wages for "other" occupations quite a bit.

I know I'd be skeptical of $48K for teaching a middle school classroom.

In an odd twist, the teachers of the advanced programs, such as the International Baccalaureate program at East, probably earn above average wages. I'd teach those kids for less than I'd teach a "typical" class at East. The motivated students are easier (and cheaper) to teach.

[shockmonster]

Wufan,

Out of all I said, the main point you received was about compensation? I'm glad you respect teachers. Many people don't.

Our educational entities put up with a lot, especially in areas like Wichita. I obviously don't know many teachers where your sister teaches. From what I can gather regarding education in places like Wichita, demographicshave totally changed in the past 30 years. I visited with a teacher from a private school in Wichita. They have a student that is low special needs, and they recommended that he attend a Wichita school to address his high needs. Collegiate, Bishop Carroll, Trinity, and other private schools in this area do not have the same rules to go by.

[wufan]

Wufan,

Out of all I said, the main point you received was about compensation? I'm glad you respect teachers. Many people don't.

Our educational entities put up with a lot, especially in areas like Wichita. I obviously don't know many teachers where your sister teaches. From what I can gather regarding education in places like Wichita, demographicshave totally changed in the past 30 years. I visited with a teacher from a private school in Wichita. They have a student that is low special needs, and they recommended that he attend a Wichita school to address his high needs. Collegiate, Bishop Carroll, Trinity, and other private schools in this area do not have the same rules to go by.

I apologize if I missed your main point. Being as we are discussing finances in Kansas, I don't think increasing teacher wages, or funding social service programs so the schools can raise our children are good ways to stimulate the economy or balance the budget. I'm not saying that privatization of schools is a good way either, but when you're short 10s of millions a month in revenue, it's worth discussing the possability that social services has over-stepped its bounds.

[giskard]

If you want to check out the demographics for the different schools, you can go to the Kansas report card website, http://online.ksde.org/rcard/. You can get demographic information based on individual schools or districts.

Coleman Middle school (http://online.ksde.org/rcard/buildin...9&bldg_no=1810) for example:
86.08% are economically disadvantaged (defined as qualifies for free or reduced priced lunch)
35.69% African American
22.16% white
23.33% Hispanic
18.82% other

Andover Middle School (http://online.ksde.org/rcard/buildin...bldg_no=5179):
20.44% economically disadvantaged
81.44% white
10.61% other
6.08% Hispanic
1.87% African American

These are just a couple I looked up based on comments in this thread. Looking over the demographics for Wichita Public Schools, they have a more challenging mix than the suburban schools do. I wish that website would give target test scores based on demographics, at least the % economically disadvantaged. I've noticed a strong correlation between % disadvantaged and test scores looking through the data in the past.

If you do ask about special education at a private school, they either aren't sure what to tell you or tell you to contact your school district because they are required to provide it, even for homeschool students or students at private schools.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

You do realize that I could send my kid to Collegiate for almost that amount? Certainly to any Catholic school, Trinity or Independent. Private schooling for $12,000. Class size would be about 2/3 or less on average.

Others have already addressed this somewhat, but this is too huge not to focus on even more. Private schools get, on average, students who are:

- Much better behaved
- Come from much better in-tact families
- Significantly fewer special needs

The list could go on and on. It should be obvious that it is cheaper to run a school when you get almost exclusively "easy" students with very similar needs. Public schools have a much tougher job due to the much wider range of students walking in the door.

[shocka khan]

I apologize if I missed your main point. Being as we are discussing finances in Kansas, I don't think increasing teacher wages, or funding social service programs so the schools can raise our children are good ways to stimulate the economy or balance the budget. I'm not saying that privatization of schools is a good way either, but when you're short 10s of millions a month in revenue, it's worth discussing the possability that social services has over-stepped its bounds.

This comment totally misses the point that the legislature approved the cuts to school funding to accommodate Brownback's tax plan. Those cuts are the root cause the education budget and the general fund are 10's of millions of dollars short, not 'social services over-stepping their bounds (sic)'. If you disagree with me, please provide evidence that demand for these 'social services' has increased since the tax cut.

Try being a little more objective next time. I try to stay out of these 'Kansas' discussions as I do not have contexting (neither myself or anyone in my family lives there anymore), but in this case you are so far off base as to how this happened that I felt compelled to comment.

I will say that my general observation on this whole topic is that Brownback appears to have done what Bobby Jindal did - wreck the entire economy of a state based on rich people kvetching they're paying too much in taxes.

[shocka khan]

Others have already addressed this somewhat, but this is too huge not to focus on even more. Private schools get, on average, students who are:

- Much better behaved
- Come from much better in-tact families
- Significantly fewer special needs

The list could go on and on. It should be obvious that it is cheaper to run a school when you get almost exclusively "easy" students with very similar needs. Public schools have a much tougher job due to the much wider range of students walking in the door.

Private schools also pay their teachers very poorly and provide inferior benefits (based on my experience with Lutheran and Baptist schools here in Texas).

I would also challenge anyone who said that 'most' private schools offer a superior education to kids. If you charge a high tuition, you have more money to fund programs and that can translate into higher achievement (for example, see the 2nd Baptist Schools or the Awty International School here in Houston).

[shockmonster]

If you want to check out the demographics for the different schools, you can go to the Kansas report card website, http://online.ksde.org/rcard/. You can get demographic information based on individual schools or districts.

Coleman Middle school (http://online.ksde.org/rcard/buildin...9&bldg_no=1810) for example:
86.08% are economically disadvantaged (defined as qualifies for free or reduced priced lunch)
35.69% African American
22.16% white
23.33% Hispanic
18.82% other

Andover Middle School (http://online.ksde.org/rcard/buildin...bldg_no=5179):
20.44% economically disadvantaged
81.44% white
10.61% other
6.08% Hispanic
1.87% African American

These are just a couple I looked up based on comments in this thread. Looking over the demographics for Wichita Public Schools, they have a more challenging mix than the suburban schools do. I wish that website would give target test scores based on demographics, at least the % economically disadvantaged. I've noticed a strong correlation between % disadvantaged and test scores looking through the data in the past.

If you do ask about special education at a private school, they either aren't sure what to tell you or tell you to contact your school district because they are required to provide it, even for homeschool students or students at private schools.

The demographics that you are what the Kansas legislative study bore out. Actually, the private school only has to give the student some support (for higher special needs students this may be enough for the student to be successful). I believe that related support services like OT and PT (etc) accommodations, I believe are still required by law to be provided by the Wichita school district. However, if the student cannot perform within a certain period of time in the regular classroom with minimal support, the student often will leave the private school setting and go to a public school (a group decision usually). The student does have to be tested to qualify for any services.

Under the block grants, I don't believe that the state provides for any special education student needs. Anyone who thinks that McPherson students or other surrounding districts are the same demographics (some at risk factors mentioned above), or special needs who are not mentioned above are sadly uneducated on this subject. Wichita, USD 259, and to a much lesser extent, school districts like Newton, are having the screws put to them imo.

[shockmonster]

I apologize if I missed your main point. Being as we are discussing finances in Kansas,----when you're short 10s of millions a month in revenue, it's worth discussing the possability that social services has over-stepped its bounds.

One other story, Wufan since you brought up Brownback's unfair tax cut an)d Social Services (as you refer to public education). A teacher who lived in a town SE of Wichita in a community with a very diverse population and lots of at risk youths, shared a story with me. On a day (of no school) where teachers had conferences or inservices, students were on their own. She went home at lunch, and peeked out of her kitchen window and witnessed a band of seventh graders who were breaking down the back door of the house behind her. She recognized immediately the students who were doing this (as they were some of her students at the local middle school), and turned them to the police. Those students didn't miss any school and weren't taken away. Instead, they continued in school and probably had their hands slapped. Those students didn't have very much support going on at home (parents probably weren't employed and possibly on drugs, and I'm sure that a couple of them, ended up in the penitentiary at Lansing or some other prison. I'm not sure what it would take to reach those kids, but social dollars sure took over when they do to prison.

If this is happening in a town of 10K close to Wichita, it is happening all over our community, and if you live in Maize, Andover, and even Newton, El Dorado, or Augusta, it will happen to you too. All these little kids need is a car or perhaps they live down the street from you in McPherson.

[shocka khan]

One other story, Wufan since you brought up Brownback's unfair tax cut an)d Social Services (as you refer to public education). A teacher who lived in a town SE of Wichita in a community with a very diverse population and lots of at risk youths, shared a story with me. On a day (of no school) where teachers had conferences or inservices, students were on their own. She went home at lunch, and peeked out of her kitchen window and witnessed a band of seventh graders who were breaking down the back door of the house behind her. She recognized immediately the students who were doing this (as they were some of her students at the local middle school), and turned them to the police. Those students didn't miss any school and weren't taken away. Instead, they continued in school and probably had their hands slapped. Those students didn't have very much support going on at home, and I'm sure that a couple of them, ended up in the penitentiary at Lansing or some other prison. I'm not sure what it would take to reach those kids, but social dollars sure took over when they do to prison.

If this is happening in a town of 10K close to Wichita, it is happening all over our community, and if you live in Maize, Andover, and even Newton, El Dorado, or Augusta, it will happen to you too. All these little kids need is a car, and this case doesn't even bring drugs into the mix which adds more to other communities.

Totally off-topic, but I quit keeping valuable items in my garage (here in Houston) many years ago for the exact same reason. The area around my neighborhood that has not gentrified has many poor people (especially as it relates to our high school). These kids skip school, go out into the gentrified areas and steal anything that's not nailed down, especially items like bikes. They got my $500 dollar bike, but my neighbor had a $5000 Santana tandem bicycle stolen out of his garage as well. The person who got that bike had a really fine payday that day, as I would bet he could have gotten a quick grand at any pawn shop for it.

I agree with your premise. Much better spending money on social programs designed to keep kids out of jail (in spite of their parents) as opposed to me supporting them when they end up in jail. I bet if you have the numbers of what it takes to incarcerate a person on an annual basis (in Kansas) you would reach the same conclusion.

Not only that, there is a relationship to poverty and crime. Brownback's tax plan helps the rich, but in the end, creates less opportunity and more poverty (because the targets of the tax cuts do not reinvest their money in Kansas), which leads to more crime, which causes either a) an increase in the budget for social programs to prevent kids from becoming criminals or b) an increase in costs of the criminal justice system to house those kids after they enter prison.

Seriously, though, in my world, the results of these social welfare programs should be gauged using a cost-benefit analysis. If the results end up saving taxpayers money (through avoidance of incarceration), they should be allowed to continue. If they do not, they should be ended so that other alternatives can be considered.

[giskard]

Others have already addressed this somewhat, but this is too huge not to focus on even more. Private schools get, on average, students who are:

- Much better behaved
- Come from much better in-tact families
- Significantly fewer special needs

The list could go on and on. It should be obvious that it is cheaper to run a school when you get almost exclusively "easy" students with very similar needs. Public schools have a much tougher job due to the much wider range of students walking in the door.

You can add speak English as a primary language to the list. In USD 259, 20% of students are considered English Language Learners and that will complicate things for the schools.