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  • jdshock, I don’t believe this is true, “...most people think a wall is just a pretty expensive and ineffective way to secure the border.” If it is true, what are the alternatives that are more effective and cheaper?
    Livin the dream

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    • Originally posted by jdshock View Post
      Trump today: "When I said Mexico would pay for the wall in front of thousands and thousands of people ... obviously I never meant Mexico would write a check." Source

      Trump during campaign: Mexico will "make a one-time payment of $5-10 billion." Source

      It's like this hilarious circle: (1) Trump says something outlandish; (2) supporters say don't take him at his word take him at his intention/opponents say "you can't possibly mean what you just said;" (3) Trump says "no, no, I DID mean exactly what I said;" and then (4) I obviously never said or meant what I said.

      "Just remember: what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening."

      Now you know how we feel about obama's blatant fibbing. It's like a lot of these he literally just threw out there:

      https://www.politifact.com/personali...yruling/false/

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      • https://www.msnbc.com/the-beat-with-...-1423819331675

        Watch this video and give me your feedback. I'm just ****ing flabbergasted after watching it.

        See if you can spot Barbara's boo boo.


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        • I got a little wood while watching this one. Brad's a smart cookie. I plan to be wanking off on election night 2020 as all the Libtards who've been wound up by MSNBC light themselves on fire.


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          • Originally posted by wufan View Post
            jdshock, I don’t believe this is true, “...most people think a wall is just a pretty expensive and ineffective way to secure the border.” If it is true, what are the alternatives that are more effective and cheaper?
            I truly think immigration is one of the hardest topics to have a genuine conversation about. It is a very emotional issue for people. On the one hand, if you've ever been close friends with a person who is an undocumented alien, you likely experience a great deal of sympathy. On the other, if you have or someone close to you has lost a job due to outsourcing or economic conditions or whatever, it's really easy to blame that on cheap labor. The truth of the matter is that both sides are trending toward positions on immigration that completely contradict every other aspect of the party's platform. Immigration should be like free trade for the right, but some how the right is all about tariffs and limiting immigration. That does not work in a growing, capitalistic economy. It makes no sense. On the left, if we want to give free college, free health care, and a living wage to everybody, the numbers don't work out to allow huge amounts more people.

            So all that is to say, I was just stating a popularity number, pointing out that this is a deeply unpopular policy. 2/3rds of Americans don't want the wall. Admittedly, that number would include people who are opposed to any kind of border security, but my recollection is that when you ask the question about border security, you get much closer to half or a majority of people on board.

            But as for alternatives? I am certainly not an expert on policies, but let's assume that illegal immigration is something we need to fight. It just seems like a crazy solution, when the majority of undocumented aliens do not come across the border illegally. It's not going to solve the drug trade either. I mean, we're talking about HUGE quantities of heroin. Do we really think it's caused by people walking across open sections of the border? The DEA concluded that the majority of "illegal goods" are moved "over the Southwest border through ports of entry in passenger vehicles or tractor trailers." Currently, we've got over 600 miles of fencing on the border, and people have tunneled under it and cut through it. You can find a ton of articles with people talking about drone surveillance or radar solutions that will be significantly more effective, if you are interested in securing the physical border. People just want a wall so that we have a physical symbol to point to.

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            • shockfan89_
              shockfan89_ commented
              Editing a comment
              One clarification. The left likes to state this false narrative (lie) that "the majority of undocumented aliens do not come across the border illegally". In reality, we have NO IDEA how many people come across the southern border illegally. We only know how many we catch.

              In order for that point to be true, we would have to assume we catch nearly 100% of those attempting to illegally enter our country. If that's the case, we wouldn't need a wall and wouldn't have 11 million to 20 million illegal residents. We maybe catch 50%, maybe 25%.

              The number of apprehensions is way down. Down from nearly 1.7 million in 2000 to 310,000 in 2017. Does that mean illegal immigration attempts are lower or we are catching fewer people? We could have 1.4 million getting passed our defenses every year. Either way, it is VERY LIKELY that the majority of illegal aliens enter the country crossing the southern border.
              Last edited by shockfan89_; January 11th, 2019, 10:49 AM.

          • At the end of the day, regardless of what I hear about Trump about this and that....

            I think Trump is less corrupt than Hillary would have been, policy is better than Hillary's would have been, and judges, sure AF are better than Hillary's would have been.

            So, while I can admit I don't always agree with how Trump does his job, in my eyes, still better than Hillary.

            So alot of the continued 'see I told you so' from the left doesn't blind me to what my vision of a Hillary presidency would look like. But all her corruption wouldn't (hasn't) seen the light of day.

            I have no problem shining the biggest, brightest light on the president. It should be that way for EVERY president.

            And knowing that Trump is under constant scrutiny 24/7 makes me comfortable knowing he isn't getting away with anything.



            "When life hands you lemons, make lemonade." Better have some sugar and water too, or else your lemonade will suck!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by C0|dB|00ded View Post
              https://www.msnbc.com/the-beat-with-...-1423819331675

              Watch this video and give me your feedback. I'm just ****ing flabbergasted after watching it.

              See if you can spot Barbara's boo boo.


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              So imagine people have been talking about your death and planning your funeral while you are in the room trying to tell them you are alive. You'll get the gist of this video. It's conducted so matter-of-factly and somber you'd actually think you were watching reality... except for a few slip ups like the author lamenting on how he could have thought all the successful Trump deals he wrote about were actually successful... Or Barbara, always an outspoken proponent of Trump's willingness to hire the best person for the job regardless of sex, says early in the interview that she never though Trump was a very good negotiator and then at the end of the interview says that Trump just bleeds his opponents dry... which is why he's such a good negotiator...

              Other than that, I thought the entire tone of the discussion as well as the deadly seriousness of the host was very convincing. If I were a Dim sitting on the couch with my significant other I'd have one hand holding hers and the other deep in my popcorn tub. End of the world stuff. Kudos to LSNBC for getting really creative. The constant trolling you see over on Fake News Central is easier to dismiss. This was 20/20-esque.


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              • Originally posted by jdshock View Post

                I truly think immigration is one of the hardest topics to have a genuine conversation about. It is a very emotional issue for people. On the one hand, if you've ever been close friends with a person who is an undocumented alien, you likely experience a great deal of sympathy. On the other, if you have or someone close to you has lost a job due to outsourcing or economic conditions or whatever, it's really easy to blame that on cheap labor. The truth of the matter is that both sides are trending toward positions on immigration that completely contradict every other aspect of the party's platform. Immigration should be like free trade for the right, but some how the right is all about tariffs and limiting immigration. That does not work in a growing, capitalistic economy. It makes no sense. On the left, if we want to give free college, free health care, and a living wage to everybody, the numbers don't work out to allow huge amounts more people.

                So all that is to say, I was just stating a popularity number, pointing out that this is a deeply unpopular policy. 2/3rds of Americans don't want the wall. Admittedly, that number would include people who are opposed to any kind of border security, but my recollection is that when you ask the question about border security, you get much closer to half or a majority of people on board.

                But as for alternatives? I am certainly not an expert on policies, but let's assume that illegal immigration is something we need to fight. It just seems like a crazy solution, when the majority of undocumented aliens do not come across the border illegally. It's not going to solve the drug trade either. I mean, we're talking about HUGE quantities of heroin. Do we really think it's caused by people walking across open sections of the border? The DEA concluded that the majority of "illegal goods" are moved "over the Southwest border through ports of entry in passenger vehicles or tractor trailers." Currently, we've got over 600 miles of fencing on the border, and people have tunneled under it and cut through it. You can find a ton of articles with people talking about drone surveillance or radar solutions that will be significantly more effective, if you are interested in securing the physical border. People just want a wall so that we have a physical symbol to point to.
                Immigration should be like free trade for the right,
                Holy I'm-in-need-of-a-basic-Econ101-refresher-course Batman; do you actually not understand the implications on a job market when an influx of cheap labor enters into it? Forget all the "Law and Order" issues when 3rd world immigrants are not vetted, or cultural dilution issues when the vast majority of your immigration comes from one region of the world. Just focus on the impact on the middle class, the largest economic class in America by far, when you have fully capable young men flooding into your country willing to do the same work for 1/3 the pay.

                Here's a real-world example CB himself was involved in while rehabbing a house he was flipping. I needed the entire interior of the house repainted. My Realtor offered me a referral on a "painter that does A M A Z I N G work and who is also dirt cheap". I called up Mr. _ _ _ _ _ ez and had him give me a quote. The market cost to have a house this size professionally painted would be around $5k. This dude quoted me $1.5k labor and I can buy whatever paint I like... Of course I ****ing hired him; of course he did a fantastic job; and of course I robbed the paint contracting business in Wichita of about 2,500 dollars. I could have paid $5k. This is how it works and this is how it happens. Now if little old me, in one transaction can extract $2,500 out of what should be an efficiently operating market, how much do you think others are extracting? Construction jobs are a MASSIVE part of the blue-collar work force. Illegal aliens do just as good (if not better) work than American citizens for around 1/3 the pay. How do you think this is going to affect the standard of living of Joe Construction Worker?

                The funny thing is, this dude might even have been legal. He barely spoke English, but I've known MANY people who have crossed the border illegally who then have gone on to eventually become citizens. There is a current pathway to citizenship regardless of whether or not the MSM wants to report on it. It is slow, but I know entire families who have gained their citizenship through some process involving a "priority date". Citizens or not, they're still charging insanely low rates due to their skewed perception of what the America labor rate is really worth. Either that or they know they're competing against their illegal brethren who will do the same quality work but at "illegal prices". Interestingly, the previous point I just made is why the Left is wrong that all Hispanic immigrants are automatically Dim voters. Naturalized illegal immigrants care about protecting their pay too and want illegal immigration stopped... now that they are safely across.

                So the estimates are that we have 11 million illegal immigrants currently living in the U.S. The real question is, how many current naturalized citizens who were once illegal border crossers are currently living and working in the U.S. I bet the number is 30-40 million. And all those people are still working for very low pay. There's a not insignificant part of your shrinking middle-class problem. There was a time when a construction job was the way for a non-educated young person to bridge the gap from a minimum-wage McDonald's-type job to something you could actually start raising a family on. Those days are long over.


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                • shockfan89_ commented
                  5 hours ago

                  One clarification. The left likes to state this false narrative (lie) that "the majority of undocumented aliens do not come across the border illegally". In reality, we have NO IDEA how many people come across the southern border illegally. We only know how many we catch.

                  In order for that point to be true, we would have to assume we catch nearly 100% of those attempting to illegally enter our country. If that's the case, we wouldn't need a wall and wouldn't have 11 million to 20 million illegal residents. We maybe catch 50%, maybe 25%.

                  The number of apprehensions is way down. Down from nearly 1.7 million in 2000 to 310,000 in 2017. Does that mean illegal immigration attempts are lower or we are catching fewer people? We could have 1.4 million getting passed our defenses every year. Either way, it is VERY LIKELY that the majority of illegal aliens enter the country crossing the southern border.
                  Check my above comments on how many "once illegals" now have their work permits, green cards, or full-blown citizenship. I know of one family where all four children have obtained their full citizenship after a process that took 5-10 years. We have 10's of millions of "citizens" in America who cut in line and came across the border unqualified. The good news is, I think at least half of that group are conservative. That is unless they have a ton of family they're still trying to get over the border.


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                  • [QUOTE=jdshock;n1161771]

                    So all that is to say, I was just stating a popularity number, pointing out that this is a deeply unpopular policy. 2/3rds of Americans don't want the wall. Admittedly, that number would include people who are opposed to any kind of border security, but my recollection is that when you ask the question about border security, you get much closer to half or a majority of people on board.

                    Whoa, that article does NOT say that 2/3 of Americans don’t want a wall. It says that 49% of Americans dont support construction of a wall from the Pacific to the Atlantic.
                    Livin the dream

                    Comment


                    • jdshock
                      jdshock commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Keep reading. The point of the article is that 49% is an outlier finding.

                    • wufan
                      wufan commented
                      Editing a comment
                      It’s really close to 50/50, with 38/62 being the furthest from that.

                      http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm
                      Last edited by wufan; January 12th, 2019, 11:16 AM.

                    • jdshock
                      jdshock commented
                      Editing a comment
                      If it were "really close" to 50/50, you'd see some polls that show more people support the wall than oppose it. I quickly went through that page, and none showed that. So, at best, we're arguing about whether an extra 10% of the population opposes it, since I said 2/3 and you're putting forth a site that seems to peg it at about 55%.

                      Either way, we're talking about a deeply unpopular policy, and a policy that you have not tried to defend in the slightest.

                  • Comment


                    • https://news.yahoo.com/kamala-harris...103024721.html

                      didn't know where to put this

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                      • C0|dB|00ded
                        C0|dB|00ded commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Kamala is the worst of them all. She would make Obama look like Reagan. She actually tried to compare I.C.E. with the KKK.


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                    • Hot take on the wall: it's silly to spend money like this during times of economic growth. A smart republican should table the discussion with the specific caveat that the next time democrats want a fiscal stimulus during the next recession, the infrastructure spending should go toward a wall.

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                      • shockfan89_
                        shockfan89_ commented
                        Editing a comment
                        A wall is a long term investment that should lower the annual spend on border patrol agents or allow us to reposition those resources to focus on breach attempts, tunnels, visa overstays, port of entry smuggling. It is one piece of a good, common sense, approach.

                        The same reason I build a fence around my backyard, or lock my doors. It won't prevent someone from getting into my backyard or house, but it is a cost-effective way to eliminate 95% of the attempts. I could hire private security to patrol my property line but I would spend as much annually as a one-time investment to build the fence/wall.

                      • ShockTalk
                        ShockTalk commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I don't disagree shockfan89_. Problem is that the easy approach to get the masses against a wall is that it only covers 250 some miles and also avoid putting yourself out there for a better solution or combination of solutions, thus, getting elected. Better yet, stick your head in the sand and pretend there is no problem. Hell, some want Open Borders which basically means you have no borders, thus, no country. Easy to say when you're not having to back that approach with what is costs, monetarily and otherwise.

                      • C0|dB|00ded
                        C0|dB|00ded commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Table the discussion on a topic that was one of the keys to getting Trump elected. Nice try JDS.

                        It's time to go the emergency route and reopen the government.


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                      • https://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ays-anti-trump

                        The office of Special Counsel Robert Mueller rocked the media industry Friday night by refuting a bombshell BuzzFeed News report that would have directly implicated President Trump in a crime – but instead provided critics of modern journalism with their latest round of ammunition.

                        Then, in an unprecedented move, the office of the special counsel released a statement that pushed back hard against BuzzFeed’s alleged scoop.

                        “BuzzFeed’s description of specific statements to the Special Counsel’s Office, & characterization of documents & testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen’s Congressional testimony are not accurate,” special counsel spokesman Peter Carr stated.
                        AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

                        **** YOU LIBTARDS!





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