Trump

[jdshock]

Since the topic has changed anyway, I will ask a question that I think creates an interesting discussion around the abortion issue.

My understanding of in vitro fertilization is that a handful of eggs are fertilized, but several will be put into storage for later. Usually this is so that it's cheaper if the parents decide to pursue IVF a second time or if the first one doesn't take.

Is IVF unacceptable for the same reasons abortion is? i.e., there are fertilized eggs that do not reach their potential of life?

If IVF is acceptable, what is the key difference and the justification that a pre-viability fetus is a life but the fertilized egg is not?

[WuDrWu]

Only play a doctor on the internet, but I don't believe we've found a way to suspend life once it's started, even in it's tiniest infancy, have we?

I think we've just suspended unfertilized eggs and sperm. Could be way off.

[jdshock]

Only play a doctor on the internet, but I don't believe we've found a way to suspend life once it's started, even in it's tiniest infancy, have we?

I think we've just suspended unfertilized eggs and sperm. Could be way off.

That's not my understanding from what friends have told me. A quick google search also brings up tons of sites referring to frozen embryo storage: https://www.shadygrovefertility.com/...ryo-transfers/

If it is a frozen embryo, would that be equivalent to an abortion?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

What if Trump has the launch codes? Hypothetically, he could start WW3 right now. Knowing that, don't you think we should impeach?

Neither @jdshock: nor I ever asked if Trump SHOULD get impeached for anything he has already done. Your exaggeration is based on a lie.

[jdshock]

Neither @jdshock nor I ever asked if Trump SHOULD get impeached for anything he has already done. Your exaggeration is based on a lie.

How dare you post something on topic!

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I have had the race card played on me in this thread, have you?

That is a lie.

[Kung Wu]

Since the topic has changed anyway, I will ask a question that I think creates an interesting discussion around the abortion issue.

My understanding of in vitro fertilization is that a handful of eggs are fertilized, but several will be put into storage for later. Usually this is so that it's cheaper if the parents decide to pursue IVF a second time or if the first one doesn't take.

Is IVF unacceptable for the same reasons abortion is? i.e., there are fertilized eggs that do not reach their potential of life?

If IVF is acceptable, what is the key difference and the justification that a pre-viability fetus is a life but the fertilized egg is not?

Well, a nearly universally accepted medical definition of death is "when the heart stops beating". By corollary, the medical definition of life must be "when the heart starts beating". The heart starts beating about 3 weeks after fertilization. With no religious argument at all, and only a nearly universally accepted medical argument, one can easily claim that life begins at about 3 weeks after fertilization.

If that argument -- which is really hard to argue against from any non-religious angle I look at it -- were accepted, it would open up the doors to a compromise by allowing use of the "morning after" pill with a clear conscious on both sides.

That would also answer your IVF question.

[shocka khan]

That is a lie.

I agree, Jamar. I have called Troll Valley John a troll (because he is) and a serial thread hijacker (because he is). Should we add the title of prevaracator as well? Let's just say it wouldn't surprise me one bit. That's why he and another frequest fact-free poster are on ignore.

[ShockingButTrue]

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Come on, man. You know that pro-choice folks don't consider a fetus a human being. An abortion debate would be worse than the silly debate we're having about athlete benefits. You might not agree with it, but it's at least internally consistent.

Conservatives are much more susceptible to claims of hypocrisy:

The chasm between directly murdering someone, and being held responsible for not doing enough to go out of your way to help improve someone's life, is massive. We can debate whether the latter is important, is lacking among conservatives, etc., but don't you dare equate that to outright committing murder.

JD, you are better than that cartoon.

[ShockingButTrue]

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Or perhaps you could do the Christian thing and shoot them during church services. Isn't that what happened to George Tiller?

Yes, that is the "Christian" thing.

My God, you have become one of the most brain dead posters on this board.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Only play a doctor on the internet, but I don't believe we've found a way to suspend life once it's started, even in it's tiniest infancy, have we?

I think we've just suspended unfertilized eggs and sperm. Could be way off.

JD is correct. My wife and I personally did IVF and utilized a FERTILIZED embryo a full year after it was technically conceived. It did not survive, but many couples have had such success.

Makes for a really strange wrinkle regarding age. We already have the "am I X years old or X+9 months years old" issue. In some cases, that could be X+Y years.

[jdshock]

The chasm between directly murdering someone, and being held responsible for not doing enough to go out of your way to help improve someone's life, is massive. We can debate whether the latter is important, is lacking among conservatives, etc., but don't you dare equate that to outright committing murder.

JD, you are better than that cartoon.

That's a fair point.

[shocka khan]

Yes, that is the "Christian" thing.

My God, you have become one of the most brain dead posters on this board.

What makes you say that? The guy who shot Tiller was a Christian. I believe he said God told him to do it. Those are facts. People on both sides of this issue get fanatical about it.

When I voted for Trump during this election, I had to think about many aspects of this issue, as I believe that it is between a person and their creator when they do something like go out and get an abortion.

Back when we had Rowe Vs. Wade, back in 1969, when you were probably in grade school (at best), there was virtually no effective birth control available outside the pill. They had the rhythm method, prophyllactics, and diaphragms, but those forms of birth control are not very effective.

Today we have norplant the morning-after pill and a whole lot more. I came to the decision that reproductive rights were probably not as important as they had been at one time and figured if Trump got elected, he would not hesitate to go after this issue. I was correct. But I am comfortable with my decision because there are a whole lot more choices for those who do not want to get in a family way than there used to be.

I don't think it is a bad thing for legislation to be enacted to overturn Rowe vs. Wade, but I think some of the more fanatical pro-lifers are obsessed with a woman's reproductive system as Trump is with the size of the crowd at his inauguration. Therefore we will never have any common-sense compromises. The wealthy interests on both sides in this country have a whole lot to lose if we start cooperating with each other. It's much easier to keep us divided.

And to me, the best thing about all this is I can sit back and laugh about all the lies Trump tells (which I think will get him voted out of office), one of his closest advisors getting in a fist fight at one of the inaugural balls and so forth.

At least I wasn't a Shill for Hill like you were. I don't think she would be any better than Trump has been. Probably a little less brash, but with the same ethical blindness you're seeing from Trump. Probably the same investigations (or calls for them). Definitely the same streak of arrogance and condescension. That's what many of our leaders in this country (and especially in the corporate sector) are these days. If they were middle class, they might even have ended up as career criminals.

And the fact that you don't see or recognize that makes you even more brain dead than you think I am. Good luck to you. Perhaps someday you will see the light. :)