A Common Sense Approach to Middle East Refugees.

[Rlh04d]

Hopefully, our government has learned a lesson from the "second Gulf War". As much as I believed in the idea of the second Gulf War (or duped into it), I wanted to have nothing to do with it without equal to or better world support than Desert Storm. I also was not in favor of a lengthy stay without strong world support.

I feel for France's plight, but I also remember their anti-roll with Russia against us before the second Gulf War.

For more reasons than just Muslim refugees, I am opposed to immigration at this time. We need to get our house in order and to do so, we need to put a moratorium on most all immigration and send illegals back to Central America. If Central Americans wish to apply and receive temporary visas BEFORE entering the US, fine. Green cards would be much tougher to get if at all. I've never been a fan of two wrongs making a right, so I'm not favoring children born in the US by illegals as citizens either. The current administration's position on illegals spits in the face of past immigrants who did it the right way.

I've probably said more than I should have.

I understand your feelings, but economically most of what you're proposing would be disastrous.

[Rlh04d]

Absolutely.

And taking the fight to Iraq, a territory we were very familiar with and a place that terrorists could easily travel to, was right out of Sun Tzu's The Art of War. I know it wasn't popular, but it was effective.

Considering ISIS has benefited greatly from the Iraq war, I disagree that it was effective.

It may have been successful at dealing with AQ, but the defection of former Sadaam loyalists/Baathists to ISIS (or whatever group was going to emerge) was always going to happen.

[Kung Wu]

Considering ISIS has benefited greatly from the Iraq war, I disagree that it was effective.

That didn't happen until we scaled way back.

[Rlh04d]

That didn't happen until we scaled way back.

Not true. ISIS began long before it started making worldwide news, and it was benefiting from our intervention in Iraq long before people here knew it existed.

ISIS more or less began as Al Qaeda in Iraq, which primarily rose to importance with Al-Zarqawi's opposition to the US military.

ISIS existed and grew for years and years before we pulled back from Iraq. They didn't begin seizing large chunks of territory until then, but ISIS does not exist, at all, without the initial Iraqi invasion.

[Kung Wu]

Not true. ISIS began long before it started making worldwide news, and it was benefiting from our intervention in Iraq long before people here knew it existed.

ISIS more or less began as Al Qaeda in Iraq, which primarily rose to importance with Al-Zarqawi's opposition to the US military.

ISIS existed and grew for years and years before we pulled back from Iraq. They didn't begin seizing large chunks of territory until then, but ISIS does not exist, at all, without the initial Iraqi invasion.

Yes, but there's a difference between being in existence and having serious traction. ISIS did not gain serious traction until the 2012 Sunni protests over Maliki's hyper partisan stance. Once the Sunni uprising began, they sided with ISIS and the footprint of ISIS began its real growth trajectory.

[Rlh04d]

Yes, but there's a difference between being in existence and having serious traction. ISIS did not gain serious traction until the 2012 Sunni protests over Maliki's hyper partisan stance. Once the Sunni uprising began, they sided with ISIS and the footprint of ISIS began its real growth trajectory.

ISIS was already gaining traction in Syria before that.

The Sunni protests were certainly a major part in ISIS' rise, but ISIS was already on a trajectory towards being a massive problem well before we pulled out of Iraq. Remaining in Iraq would not have stopped their rise, but going into Iraq is directly responsible for their existence.

[Kung Wu]

Remaining in Iraq would not have stopped their rise, but going into Iraq is directly responsible for their existence.

We could have stopped their rise in Iraq.

[Kung Wu]

We could have stopped their rise in Iraq.

Well, heck, Syria for that matter. According to the CIA, as reported in TIME, ISIS numbers tripled from 10,000 to 30,000+ in late 2013 or early 2014 -- it wasn't clear exactly when.

[Rlh04d]

We could have stopped their rise in Iraq.

We could have stopped their rise at many points. My point is just that pulling out of Iraq wasn't the one, single point that created the current problem. It exacerbated the problem, but it didn't create it. The invasion of Iraq didn't create it, either, as the real problem is the terrorist ideology in general, and that has far longer-term causes -- but it did create this specific problem.

We could have done dozens if not hundreds of things differently along the way. I would have recommended co-opting or executing all Sadaam loyalists on war crimes at the start, to prevent the numbers of disaffected former Iraqi military leadership/intelligence who defected to ISIS.

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

Why dont we find a group of people in that area that hate ISIS equally as we do. Give them weapons, give them money train their forces in combat so that they will help overthrow said group.

I mean its been working since the Reagan years right?

[SB Shock]

Why dont we find a group of people in that area that hate ISIS equally as we do. Give them weapons, give them money train their forces in combat so that they will help overthrow said group.

I mean its been working since the Reagan years right?

That what the MSNBC anchor basically said - take a look at the Syrian refugees and split out those who are of military age and tell them they need to go back and fight for their country.

[ShockTalk]

Hopefully, our government has learned a lesson from the "second Gulf War". As much as I believed in the idea of the second Gulf War (or duped into it), I wanted to have nothing to do with it without equal to or better world support than Desert Storm. I also was not in favor of a lengthy stay without strong world support.

I feel for France's plight, but I also remember their anti-roll with Russia against us before the second Gulf War.

For more reasons than just Muslim refugees, I am opposed to immigration at this time. We need to get our house in order and to do so, we need to put a moratorium on most all immigration and send illegals back to Central America. If Central Americans wish to apply and receive temporary visas BEFORE entering the US, fine. Green cards would be much tougher to get if at all. I've never been a fan of two wrongs making a right, so I'm not favoring children born in the US by illegals as citizens either. The current administration's position on illegals spits in the face of past immigrants who did it the right way.

I've probably said more than I should have.

I understand your feelings, but economically most of what you're proposing would be disastrous.

Could please expound on this?

Also, my position regarding immigration was that way prior to the Muslim refugee thing. However, my position would also now apply to it as well. If you have not done so, also read this thread and watch the videos, particularly the second before answering. Feel free to debunk the videos all you wish. I'm most always open to new ideas and approaches.

[Rlh04d]

Could please expound on this?

Also, my position regarding immigration was that way prior to the Muslim refugee thing. However, my position would also now apply to it as well. If you have not done so, also read this thread and watch the videos, particularly the second before answering. Feel free to debunk the videos all you wish. I'm most always open to new ideas and approaches.

I can expound, but I'll go through your links before doing so, and get back to you in a day or two.

[Rlh04d]

Why dont we find a group of people in that area that hate ISIS equally as we do. Give them weapons, give them money train their forces in combat so that they will help overthrow said group.

I mean its been working since the Reagan years right?

To a degree, we've been doing that in Syria already. This gets a bit murky, since ISIS' victims are predominantly Shia Muslims, and thus arming Shia Muslims to do battle with ISIS could theoretically drive more Sunnis into ISIS for protection -- beyond other things, does anyone really believe arming militant Shia Muslims wouldn't very quickly end with them targeting innocent Sunnis not associated with ISIS? We would essentially be arming one side of a Muslim civil war, and if that's the case then the area is going to divide starkly on those lines. We don't want to make ISIS a credible representative of Sunni Islam.

And "working" is relative, I guess.

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

To a degree, we've been doing that in Syria already. This gets a bit murky, since ISIS' victims are predominantly Shia Muslims, and thus arming Shia Muslims to do battle with ISIS could theoretically drive more Sunnis into ISIS for protection -- beyond other things, does anyone really believe arming militant Shia Muslims wouldn't very quickly end with them targeting innocent Sunnis not associated with ISIS? We would essentially be arming one side of a Muslim civil war, and if that's the case then the area is going to divide starkly on those lines. We don't want to make ISIS a credible representative of Sunni Islam.

And "working" is relative, I guess.

I was being completely facetious.