Gender roles in America

[Atxshoxfan]

This is in Canada, but it’s an interesting case study in gender and discrimination: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...triarchy-women

China is now requiring masculinity training to all males in their schools because of this feminization of young males in their country. That, while we continue to tell young men that they can be a woman if they want to be.

[SubGod22]

It's a no brainer. A handful of years ago a Dallas 16U club team beat the US Women's National Team in a match and it wasn't close. 6-1 or something if memory serves.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with keeping men and women's sports separate. It's better that way.

[CBB_Fan]

One downside to laws explicitly banning transgender and intersex individuals from athletic competition is the requirement it imposes: sex testing. Broadly speaking, this would likely take three forms: hormone testing, chromosome testing, and genital testing. The first two may lead to the ostracization to girls who fail (higher than normal testosterone or any chromosomal disorder), but the latter is the real issue. I see a massive problem forcing a gynecological exam on school-age girls (particularly if future laws allow it to be performed by school or state personnel and not a family's trusted doctor). It's a privacy issue, a sexual abuse issue, and more. This isn't a hypothetical issue that might come up in the future; Idaho has this as law.

The health care provider may verify the student's biological sex as part of a routine sports physical examination relying only on one (1) or more of the following: the student's reproductive anatomy, genetic makeup, or normal endogenously produced testosterone levels

On these grounds, a cisgender female athlete worked with the ACLU to sue as she felt it was unfair that she be potentially subjected to such testing in order to try to prevent transgender athletes from competing. Further, it is a legal issue in that female athletes would be subjected to such tests, but male athletes would not. If a girl chooses not to undergo sex testing, she would be banned from competition based on a unique requirement for female athletes that male athletes are not burdened with; this could be a violation of Title IX.

Just to play devil's advocate. It isn't as simple as saying "no boys allowed," and that is where it gets tricky. Even if you trust transgender students to not try the lines, there are intersex athletes crossing the lines without even knowing it. An example would be Caster Semenya.

[wufan]

One downside to laws explicitly banning transgender and intersex individuals from athletic competition is the requirement it imposes: sex testing. Broadly speaking, this would likely take three forms: hormone testing, chromosome testing, and genital testing. The first two may lead to the ostracization to girls who fail (higher than normal testosterone or any chromosomal disorder), but the latter is the real issue. I see a massive problem forcing a gynecological exam on school-age girls (particularly if future laws allow it to be performed by school or state personnel and not a family's trusted doctor). It's a privacy issue, a sexual abuse issue, and more. This isn't a hypothetical issue that might come up in the future; Idaho has this as law.



On these grounds, a cisgender female athlete worked with the ACLU to sue as she felt it was unfair that she be potentially subjected to such testing in order to try to prevent transgender athletes from competing. Further, it is a legal issue in that female athletes would be subjected to such tests, but male athletes would not. If a girl chooses not to undergo sex testing, she would be banned from competition based on a unique requirement for female athletes that male athletes are not burdened with; this could be a violation of Title IX.

Just to play devil's advocate. It isn't as simple as saying "no boys allowed," and that is where it gets tricky. Even if you trust transgender students to not try the lines, there are intersex athletes crossing the lines without even knowing it. An example would be Caster Semenya.

Whoa! You made this super-duper complicated for no reason.

First of all, no one is banning transgender kids.

Second of all, a simple birth certificate should suffice in offering the necessary identification.

If you wanted to make sure not to exclude anyone, you could have a female at birth and still female now league, and everyone else could compete in the male or transgender league.

[CBB_Fan]

Whoa! You made this super-duper complicated for no reason.

First of all, no one is banning transgender kids.

Second of all, a simple birth certificate should suffice in offering the necessary identification.

If you wanted to make sure not to exclude anyone, you could have a female at birth and still female now league, and everyone else could compete in the male or transgender league.

The point I bring up is more about the additional constraints this brings up for female athletes rather than any burden it puts on transgender individuals. Even if transgender athletes can simply 'compete with the boys', there is a still an issue if a cisgender female athlete is forced to comply with mandatory sex testing or either be banned or forced to likewise compete with men.

And second, a birth certificate is not sufficient. Aside from the simple issue of fraud (or the practice of some states allowing birth certificates to be amended), the existence of intersex athletes is also a concern and these athletes were designated female-at-birth. The Olympic Committee instituted sex testing in the 60s to try and catch men (particularly from the USSR) attempting to masquerade as women. They found the 1 in 2000 Olympic female athletes had XY chromosomes, and none of those individuals was assigned male at birth.

The existence of transgender athletes trying to get around a ban from competition in female-only competition and intersex athletes unintentionally violating the same is why sex testing would be necessary to achieve such a ban. And again, this is actual law practiced currently in a US state. They ask for sex testing, not a birth certificate; this is why.

Even a 'girls-only' and 'anyone else' league separation still has the problem of forcing cisgender girls to compete with men if they don't want to undergo a sex test and submit the results to the state. That seems to be opposed to the general idea of these bills. And there are certainly plenty of reasons why a cisgender girl would not want her 'sexual anatomy' to be a public record.

[C0|dB|00ded]

China is now requiring masculinity training to all males in their schools because of this feminization of young males in their country. That, while we continue to tell young men that they can be a woman if they want to be.

That's gonna be a real problem for us in the future. Hopefully by the time this nation is fully feminized (neutralized?), we'll have a fully autonomous military to defend us. Because it absolutely won't be this guy:

[Kung Wu]

The point I bring up is more about the additional constraints this brings up for female athletes rather than any burden it puts on transgender individuals. Even if transgender athletes can simply 'compete with the boys', there is a still an issue if a cisgender female athlete is forced to comply with mandatory sex testing or either be banned or forced to likewise compete with men.

And second, a birth certificate is not sufficient. Aside from the simple issue of fraud (or the practice of some states allowing birth certificates to be amended), the existence of intersex athletes is also a concern and these athletes were designated female-at-birth. The Olympic Committee instituted sex testing in the 60s to try and catch men (particularly from the USSR) attempting to masquerade as women. They found the 1 in 2000 Olympic female athletes had XY chromosomes, and none of those individuals was assigned male at birth.

The existence of transgender athletes trying to get around a ban from competition in female-only competition and intersex athletes unintentionally violating the same is why sex testing would be necessary to achieve such a ban. And again, this is actual law practiced currently in a US state. They ask for sex testing, not a birth certificate; this is why.

Even a 'girls-only' and 'anyone else' league separation still has the problem of forcing cisgender girls to compete with men if they don't want to undergo a sex test and submit the results to the state. That seems to be opposed to the general idea of these bills. And there are certainly plenty of reasons why a cisgender girl would not want her 'sexual anatomy' to be a public record.

You need kids.

[revenge_of_shocka_khan]

This is the kind of horse manure that the republican party represents these days....that and fiscal conservatism when their guy isn't president and amnesia when he is.

What is the rate of transvestites in the general population? Couldn't be over 5%, I'm betting less, but willing to look at someone's numbers so long as they come from a trustworthy source.

[CBB_Fan]

You need kids.

If you don't see the potential damages I'm outlining, I'm not the one with a lack of sympathy. I'll give a hypothetical example.

Jane Doe is a middle school girl in Idaho. She wants to play volleyball. However, unlike other girls her age, she was violently raped and now has pretty significant genital scarring. This has led to a variety of issues she would rather keep private, but another girl noticed that she refused to change for gym class in front of others and pulled down her pants to try to figure out if she was secretly one of the transgender kids she's been warned about. Her classmate sees the scarring, and tells the school counselor that she thinks Jane Doe is a boy who has had surgery because of the scars. Now Jane Doe is forced to have her hormones and genetic information tested, and her sexual anatomy made public to the state. Or she declined, and is forced to compete as a 'boy' if at all.

I don't think that is fair or right. And sadly, I don't think this situation is particularly uncommon; I expect the number sexually abused ten year girls is higher than the number of MTF ten year olds. The solution can't be worse than the problem for the people it is trying to protect.

[ShockerFever]

This is the kind of horse manure that the republican party represents these days....that and fiscal conservatism when their guy isn't president and amnesia when he is.

What is the rate of transvestites in the general population? Couldn't be over 5%, I'm betting less, but willing to look at someone's numbers so long as they come from a trustworthy source.

Did the power just come back on and are you angrily catching up or are you on your period (keeping with topic)?

[Shockm]

I don't think that is fair or right. And sadly, I don't think this situation is particularly uncommon; I expect the number sexually abused ten year girls is higher than the number of MTF ten year olds. The solution can't be worse than the problem for the people it is trying to protect.

Transgender athletes are a very uncommon problem in Kansas High Schools. To my knowledge, it’s never been a problem here, so it looks like you are looking for one. Girls and boys have been separated very easily without gynecological exams in Kansas since girls became a part of the KSHSAA and Title 9, and even before that so it must not be difficult.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

I think the commonality of the issue is not the point and is irrelevant to the overall issue.

[CBB_Fan]

Transgender athletes are a very uncommon problem in Kansas High Schools. To my knowledge, it’s never been a problem here, so it looks like you are looking for one. Girls and boys have been separated very easily without gynecological exams in Kansas since girls became a part of the KSHSAA and Title 9, and even before that so it must not be difficult.

Yes, it is a very uncommon issue, to the point that it is has never been necessary to make specific laws restricting transgender athletes and requiring examinations. The issue is that several states have made specific laws targeting transgender athletes, and inadvertently forced cisgender students to take the tests I'm referring to. The issue is exactly that the status quo is not harmful, and the change under the laws is.

I'm not looking for a problem with what is done currently (except in Idaho), I'm just seeing a problematic lack of concern for how these proposed bills will effect the cisgender females they are supposed to protect. I would expect this to be a primary concern, not a secondary one. I have a cynical opinion of that.

These bills are currently under debate in several states. Kansas is not one of them. The states that have bills similar to that passed in Idaho are: Arizona, Connecticut, Iowa, Georgia, Hawaii, Kentucky, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Texas.

[wufan]

The point I bring up is more about the additional constraints this brings up for female athletes rather than any burden it puts on transgender individuals. Even if transgender athletes can simply 'compete with the boys', there is a still an issue if a cisgender female athlete is forced to comply with mandatory sex testing or either be banned or forced to likewise compete with men.

And second, a birth certificate is not sufficient. Aside from the simple issue of fraud (or the practice of some states allowing birth certificates to be amended), the existence of intersex athletes is also a concern and these athletes were designated female-at-birth. The Olympic Committee instituted sex testing in the 60s to try and catch men (particularly from the USSR) attempting to masquerade as women. They found the 1 in 2000 Olympic female athletes had XY chromosomes, and none of those individuals was assigned male at birth.

The existence of transgender athletes trying to get around a ban from competition in female-only competition and intersex athletes unintentionally violating the same is why sex testing would be necessary to achieve such a ban. And again, this is actual law practiced currently in a US state. They ask for sex testing, not a birth certificate; this is why.

Even a 'girls-only' and 'anyone else' league separation still has the problem of forcing cisgender girls to compete with men if they don't want to undergo a sex test and submit the results to the state. That seems to be opposed to the general idea of these bills. And there are certainly plenty of reasons why a cisgender girl would not want her 'sexual anatomy' to be a public record.

No. No mandatory sex testing. That’s the solution. If someone commits fraud, well then they’re a cheater. Trans athletes aren’t that common. Cheating ones would be less so. We let kids play in age groups based on birth certificate. Sometimes they cheat.

[wufan]

This is the kind of horse manure that the republican party represents these days....that and fiscal conservatism when their guy isn't president and amnesia when he is.

What is the rate of transvestites in the general population? Couldn't be over 5%, I'm betting less, but willing to look at someone's numbers so long as they come from a trustworthy source.

What does that have to do with anything?