Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Steeleshocker]

I tend to lean conservative, or perhaps libertarian in my views, but your last line amuses me. If the socialist/communist path leads to our failure to innovate, then how is it also possible world leadership of innovation would be taken over by a socialist/communist nation?

And for the record, I think ACO is a moron for believing that we can just "get rid of" air travel and replace it with high speed rail.

Also, many of the policies pushing us towards reduced carbon are being done by the free market and conscientious consumers. Just today I decided it was worth the extra $1 to my electric bill to have wind power supply 50% of my power. Market economics on electric cars and renewable energy are already taking us towards reduction or elimination of carbon pollution. We don't need the government to force it down our throats.

[wufan]

You're comparing apples to oranges, both (1) by conflating Soviet and Maoist policies with general socialism and (2) by comparing deaths under those regimes to a reduction in poverty. Surely you wouldn't be satisfied if I respond simply by saying "Capitalism has resulted in exorbitant resource consumption. Socialism kept the trains running on time." Those aren't the same thing.

Obviously, loads of people died under tyrannical communist governments throughout the history of the world. Undoubtedly that is true. Loads of people have died in the name of capitalism, though, too. Unregulated capitalism (to be clear, no one in this thread appears to be supporting such a thing) allowed millions to be sold into slavery. Unregulated capitalism provides incentives to engage in international wars over resource allocation. That could be anything from oil to diamonds to water. Unregulated capitalism, objectively this is true, means that individual firms do not feel the consequences of their externalities (by definition). If I can make $100, I don't care if I caused $100,000 worth of air pollution. Across the board, we can point to examples of injuries or deaths caused by capitalism, and millions more that could have been caused had a government not stepped in with key rules and regulations.

Capitalism is really good at leading to innovation. But it obviously has some problems. But only the most extreme (and I'm sure there are some on here) would ever want to go to an Upton-Sinclair-era form of capitalism. Right? Hopefully we can agree that some regulations are good. It's good for companies to have to meet certain food regulations. It's good for companies to experience consequences if they pollute too much.

And America's current brand of capitalism does an okay job at things like preventing slavery, at regulating food production, at regulating pollution, etc. But that's kind of the crux of the point: we are not an unfettered capitalistic society. There is a spectrum between socialism and capitalism. And things like Medicare for all and college tuition are certainly more toward the socialism end than the capitalism end, but so are public k-12 education, the FDA, and progressive tax brackets. The right is using socialism as this boogeyman to scare people away from universal healthcare, et al, rather than debating the merits of each particular point.

At what point would you say the United States is more socialist than capitalist?

I think my statements are the sentiments you are battling against when engaging a free market hawk. Maybe it’s apples and oranges, but the commy apple is rotten and the capitalist orange is juicy and delicious. Discarding the orange because it’s bruised doesn’t imply that you want to eat the rotten apple.

Certainly capitalism is hugely flawed. It didn’t kill 10 million or even 1 million people. It does kill a few, but saves more than it kills. It does cause harm, suffering, depression. Unfortunately it’s the best damn thing that’s ever happened to the world. Once the capitalists invent replicators, then we can live in communism.

also, capitalism didn’t create slavery; in fact free market countries were the first to outlaw slavery. Certainly they should have done this sooner, but it took a long time to resolve liberty rights and property rights. Just as liberty comes before property (happiness) in the Constitution, life comes before liberty. 100 years from now, people will be calling out pro-choice people of this century as abhorrent capitalists.

[wufan]

We all (presumably) agree that socialism and capitalism are just different ends of the same spectrum. We all (again, presumably) agree that we are not in an unfettered capitalistic society. So when do we cross the magic threshold and become more socialist than capitalist? CB said it was healthcare, but that seems like it was kind of pulled out of nowhere.

When do we cross the line? We cross the line when we legislate equity. Equity means that, by law what you have no longer belongs to you, it belongs to somebody else because they need it more.

Taxation of everyone so that everyone can have access to a service is okay. The problem arises when most are paying nothing while the minority pay all of it. The “don’t pays” have externalities that cost a lot of money. We are nearing that tipping point where the majority are paying almost nothing. Health Care for all will probably push that balance so that we are more socialist than capitalist.

[moshock]

Ok I'm back - LOL - healthcare was a giant step towards the threshold if not over the line. My wife and I are in our mid 50's and were paying $350 +/- per month with a $3000 deductible pre Obamacare. Now we are forced to pay $2200 with a much larger deductible. I had two choices - make less money or work harder - all because I'm paying for someone else's healthcare.

Now AOC and the other libtards want Medicare for all ?? Something that will cost almost as much as the Nations income ?

I feel this giant sucking coming from Washington and I'm hanging on to my wallet.


BTW - Taxing the Rich ? I've figured out in my 58 years on Earth that politicians view "Rich" in a subjective way. Pretty much anyone over $50,000 per year with a job is considered rich. When they say tax the "Rich" - look out if you are an intelligent hard working person.

[moshock]

Equal wages across the board. Government owned everything. That is the root of Socialism and doesn't drive people to better themselves. Unfortunately - your party is headed that way. Hillary threatened to privatize oil. AOC wants a 70% tax on the rich. Barry dropped a giant turd in the punch bowl with health care. It's all based in leveling the playing field - socialism.

Is it fair for the person that is satisfied working for $20,000 per year at Mcd's - and not paying much if any taxes to be compensated by taking away from the $100,000,000 person ? Libtards like AOC want the guy who is making $100,000,000 to pay any where from 70%-90% income tax - where's the reward for brilliant ideas or hard work ? Just to be left with 10% - 30% !!!

The Koch family is one of the biggest employers in Wichita - think about the consequences if they were taxed at 70%-90%. There would be layoff's galore. I can guarantee that the donations to WSU would come to a halt if they have to pay that kind of rate.


Why not let people spend their hard earned $$$ where they want and create jobs by spending ? It worked during the Reagan admin and it's working now. Our sales have doubled since BO left office. I know I'm a small sample size but our products are for wealthy car collectors. They won't spend money if they are paying taxes with it.

I can vividly remember in the 70's when my Dad came home from his accountant and said he had made $205K and paid almost 1/2 of it in taxes. His comment was "I'll never do that again" . He was referring to paying that percentage in taxes.


My rant is over - I'll leave this forum (temporarily) by saying that I was raised Democrat and the party left me. What a bunch of whack jobs - and it's getting worse.

[ShockTalk]

We all (presumably) agree that socialism and capitalism are just different ends of the same spectrum. We all (again, presumably) agree that we are not in an unfettered capitalistic society. So when do we cross the magic threshold and become more socialist than capitalist? CB said it was healthcare, but that seems like it was kind of pulled out of nowhere.

[ShockTalk]

I only brought this up because of your McDonald's reference and my great concern over a shrinking middle class and a growing lower class, basically due to a lack of quality jobs and/or a lack of providing the retooling for workers for those newer, quality jobs.
The point was more this: minimum wage increases, particularly large increases, are bandages, not solutions for many workers. You make people feel good about receiving a larger minimum wage until they find out over the next couple of years that half of them have been priced out of a job due to automation being cheaper. People in these jobs are being given false hope. But they buy it because they're getting something more, or so they think.
No doubt, even higher educated workers are jobbed by capitalistic greed, that's why there needs to be a balance.

[jdshock]

We all (presumably) agree that socialism and capitalism are just different ends of the same spectrum. We all (again, presumably) agree that we are not in an unfettered capitalistic society. So when do we cross the magic threshold and become more socialist than capitalist? CB said it was healthcare, but that seems like it was kind of pulled out of nowhere.

[jdshock]

ShockTalk - I'm not sure what made you think I was talking about raising the minimum wage in this particular post (not that I'm not for it or actively avoiding it, I just wasn't talking about it here). I do think it's an interesting point.

Here is my issue with what you've said: you are proposing that if we raise the minimum wage (let's say to $12 an hour), automation will make certain jobs vanish. You are implying that automation is currently (or in the near future will be) competitive at $12/hour. If true, automation will undoubtedly be competitive at $7/hour in a not distant future. There is just no chance that the magic line that automation cannot cross is somewhere between $7/hour and $12/hour. The idea that artificially depressing the minimum wage is a good idea to stave off job loss due to automation? That is a band-aid solution. Automation will happen one way or another, it's just a question of how quickly.

[ShockTalk]

Just a comment: The Danish Minimum Wage 2 year experiment is not working. Their own words.

Developing quality jobs should be to the forefront, not raising the minimum wage of jobs to the point of where those jobs are going to vanish due to automation.

Yes, we need to find middle ground on a lot of issues. However, the left touting the AOCs will simply have the right, most of the middle, and some just left of that, ignoring or fighting against anything coming with that type of tag on it.

We need solutions, not bandages that won't be able to stay on.

[Shox The Revenant]

Does Ben Shapiro make a valid argument against a socialists economy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdA2-CAJWjo&list=PLLThycM1OizRFOIp01-4Ca2Z85VYTk6Yu

[C0|dB|00ded]

"I'm sure that I don't have as much income as you"

Don't be so sure... this country has a surplus of attorneys. You can find them clinging to the back of ambulances by the thousands.

Speaking of surplus attorneys: I think we could end a lot of our problems in this country by disappearing about half of them Thanos-style. That would be good news for the JD's of the world as his pay would rise.

The law profession has evolved into something it was never intended to become. It has gone from advisory to parasitic in nature.


T


...:cool:

[jdshock]

You bust your ass....I bust my ass - we should make an equal amount of $$$ right - it's up to you to make up the difference.

I absolutely do not believe we need to have a system where everybody makes an equal amount of money. Capitalism is really good at incentives, and people respond to incentives. I can't speak for every democrat, just as you cannot speak for every conservative, but I suspect very, very few liberals (and maybe zero of any elected officials) think we need a system where everybody gets paid an identical wage.

But I think people on both sides (see Tucker Carlson's somewhat recent comments) are starting to have issues with drastic income inequality. A surgeon making $600,000 a year vs a McDonald's employee making $20,000 is obviously a drastic difference, but it's nothing compared to a person making $100,000,000 on capital gains in a year.

[moshock]

I have a question for JD Shock. I'm assuming that You are an Attorney. My Son is an Attorney and got there by busting his ass in College and Law School as I'm sure you did. I've busted my ass to build a nice small business. I'm sure that I don't have as much income as you so would you mind sending me a small portion of your pay....you know...maybe 15-20% ? to make up the difference. To use Barak's words...it's neighborly right ? You bust your ass....I bust my ass - we should make an equal amount of $$$ right - it's up to you to make up the difference. If you truly believe in Socialism - let's hook up and compare our annual salaries so you can make up the difference between our income's. Thanks in Advance !!



To the rest of the snowflakes that make the statement that capitalism has cost the world - that statement is nuts. America's capitalistic society has created jobs all over the world. Our factory in China has 120 employees and that's just my small business. American farmers feed an extraordinary amount of people. America's technology companies employ people all over the globe and on and on and on

The USA is the standard bearer for living conditions and work environment. Just ask your next taxi cab driver. Most of them would leave their shithole country and move here in a heartbeat to join in our capitalistic society.

[C0|dB|00ded]

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with Trump. The endless investigations are for Trump. This Socialism B.S. smacks of ignorance or something far more sinister. I want to believe it's just ignorance but there are grown-ass adults involved in this economic psychosis. Bernie Sanders immediately comes to mind. He's as grown-ass as it gets...

When a basic economic textbook is freely available for all to read, I just don't understand this movement. It's almost as radical as questioning the existence of gravity.


T


...:cool: