Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions

[Maggie]

I just thought it was really interesting discussion with Berlinski. And I respect both Berlinski and Hitchens.

[Maggie]

By the way, in so far as it goes and it travels a bit, I agree with Kung Wu and wufan. And although I may be slowly breast stroking into the deep end (from which I may be unable extradite myself, intellectually – because of ignorance - although I have read a great many biblical texts - some time ago)– I would like to read more thoughts on the subject.

Just curious - the question is, I guess, does God exist? You can get into to the fact that religion and atheists have caused harm to humanity. But I don't think that matters or is relevant - nothing is perfectly good or bad. But who proves what? And is it proven? And why do they, those that seek to prove X or Y feel the need to advocate their argument as unassailable.

I am not what would be considered in many parts a religious person in the absolute sense - for many reasons dating back to when I was a young buck in Wichita. But I don't deny religion's utility (sorry) or providence.

Notwithstanding, I tend to side with Berlinski, even though I see some merit in the arguments that Hitchens or Dawkins, et al. make.

P.S. I also think it impacts, after a certain number of degrees, the politics of our time - covertly and overtly. But that is a different matter.

[SB Shock]

Just curious - the question is, I guess, does God exist? .

That is kind of big question - if the answer was known there would be alot less debate.

There is video out called "God of Wonders". It attempts to have you look at all your surrounding and show there is design in everything from snow flakes to DNA to laws of science. It is available on Netflix.

Also you can see it online at

http://www.godofwondersvideo.org/chapters.htm

[Maggie]

Just curious - the question is, I guess, does God exist? .

That is kind of big question - if the answer was known there would be alot less debate.

There is video out called "God of Wonders". It attempts to have you look at all your surrounding and show there is design in everything from snow flakes to DNA to laws of science. It is available on Netflix.

Also you can see it online at

http://www.godofwondersvideo.org/chapters.htm

Oh sure. It is a huge question - doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked.

I will watch the video you recommend. But I doubt it provides an "answer" to the question - anymore than Htichens or Dawkins or Berlinski. But does that matter? The answer I mean - an answer I am not sure "we" can hope to obtain.

I suppose it seems to matter because it bothers so many people.

As an aside - I did wish the members of this forum to educate me; I think I do have a dog in this fight but I am not sure she should be unleashed - heck I am not sure what direction (what is more - what dogs and why?). And I am not writing about members of this forum, who could care less. Just make your case, for or against -- I would appreciate it.

[wufan]

There are some pretty good arguments on the existence of God, when well articulated. Here's pretty much all of them:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

[Maggie]

There are some pretty good arguments on the existence of God, when well articulated. Here's pretty much all of them:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

I do that for a living (meaning read things that are way too long)- on my spare time? ;-)

[SB Shock]

Oh sure. It is a huge question - doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked.

I will watch the video you recommend. But I doubt it provides an "answer" to the question

All the video is going to do is provide a different perspective of looking at things that you may not have had considered. IMO whichever side you fall to will require a certain measure of faith.

To me you look for "design" - design points to a creator.

[Maggie]

There are some pretty good arguments on the existence of God, when well articulated. Here's pretty much all of them:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

I actually attempted to read that link on my blackberry (on my way home) - but I now have RSI (repetative stress syndrome). Like I wrote before - I feel I know the basics, maybe intermediate level, but nothing on the level of the links I posted or posted in this thread. I thought, maybe, members of this forum could elighten me.

Based on wufan's link - I suppose that maybe a lot to ask.

[Maggie]

Oh sure. It is a huge question - doesn't mean it shouldn't be asked.

I will watch the video you recommend. But I doubt it provides an "answer" to the question

All the video is going to do is provide a different perspective of looking at things that you may not have had considered. IMO whichever side you fall to will require a certain measure of faith.

To me you look for "design" - design points to a creator.

I will watch the video - but won't be able to for 12 hours or so.

[wufan]

There are some pretty good arguments on the existence of God, when well articulated. Here's pretty much all of them:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

I actually attempted to read that link on my blackberry (on my way home) - but I now have RSI (repetative stress syndrome). Like I wrote before - I feel I know the basics, maybe intermediate level, but nothing on the level of the links I posted or posted in this thread. I thought, maybe, members of this forum could elighten me.

Based on wufan's link - I suppose that maybe a lot to ask.

Ah. I'm not sure what kind of enlightenment you are looking for. If you are looking for God you will find him. If you aren't, you won't. I've done all the major arguments for and against God in my studies on Religeon and Philosophy. There is a ton of info out there and if you are relying on this site for redemption or for affirmation, I think you are looking in the wrong place.

As for the intelligent design theory, or finding God in nature, I believe that argument was already put together centuries ago by St. Thomas Aquanis. You can watch the Cliffs Notes in video format if you like.

[Maggie]

There are some pretty good arguments on the existence of God, when well articulated. Here's pretty much all of them:

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

I actually attempted to read that link on my blackberry (on my way home) - but I now have RSI (repetative stress syndrome). Like I wrote before - I feel I know the basics, maybe intermediate level, but nothing on the level of the links I posted or posted in this thread. I thought, maybe, members of this forum could elighten me.

Based on wufan's link - I suppose that maybe a lot to ask.

Ah. I'm not sure what kind of enlightenment you are looking for. If you are looking for God you will find him. If you aren't, you won't. I've done all the major arguments for and against God in my studies on Religeon and Philosophy. There is a ton of info out there and if you are relying on this site for redemption or for affirmation, I think you are looking in the wrong place.

As for the intelligent design theory, or finding God in nature, I believe that argument was already put together centuries ago by St. Thomas Aquanis. You can watch the Cliffs Notes in video format if you like.

I have already read Aquinas. But I should read it again - it has been a while. You see my grandfather gave my mother the Great Books set while she was in high school - those books where shelved in my room while I lived in Wichita - but they are in my possession now. I read Aquinas over 20 years ago - I have have packed all my books but I will read the text in a few weeks.

Regarding the rest of your comment - you presume too much. By the way, I will read your link too - but it is impossible to do on my blackberry. I was joking around with you - next time I will make a video. ;-)

[wufan]

I wouldn't bother with the link. It puts every conceivable argument (some good, some bad and some humorous) into elementary logical formulation. If I was more articulate I would put some of my favorites together. As it is, I haven't put together an original argument on the topic.

[Kung Wu]

This discussion totally reminds me of an old joke .. I know you've probably read it before but it's so fitting for this discussion.

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost?"

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest." To which the scientist replied, "Okay, great!"

But, God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt."