Mulvane Casino

[C0|dB|00ded]

CB, in the US we have a concept called "local rule". That, and the constitution, allows people to have influence on their community. Pastors are called to shepherd their congregations in all matters of life. Having gambling in their town is one of those matters. Gambling isn't a political issue. It's a community issue.

They have just as much right (and responsibility) to influence their community as you do. Just because you don't agree with their position, doesn't make them any less relevant.

Only problem with this is that churches aren't subject to taxes. If clergy are passing on their beliefs of politics and political issues while they are on the pulpit, they are violating the law. For a church to vocally back a candidate or, in this case, an issue, they then makes themselves subject to paying taxes.

We all know that churches do this often. One, I believe, lost their tax exemption last year in Wichita for violation of this law.

So the people listening to their pastor preach about a topic to vote on in the election, are watching their churches tax exemptions go by the wayside.

You beat me to it RR. I got a phone call and wasn't able to finish my post before you made yours. :)


T


...8)

[KC Shox]

Not wanting a casino here for you own reasons, whatever they may be is fine. Whether it be your opinion of them in general, or religious beliefs, doesn't bother me. It was the propaganda being spread by anti casino people that I'm talking about.

For example, I heard anti casino people telling people to vote no...but when asked if one was going to go in Sumner county any way, they would say NO, it hasn't been voted on yet. But the fact was it had been voted on and the vote was YES. People in favor of casinos were being labeled as evil people by those vocally against casinos. All I have to say to them is thanks for voting the money out of Wichita.

Yeah, the crappy arena that Wichita is building is already out-of-date. Everyone around us has larger arenas, KC, OKC, Tulsa, Little Rock, Omaha. We can't even get an NCAA first and second round site because of our small arena. Whack ass city and whack ass conservatives.

[ShockerFever]

Not wanting a casino here for you own reasons, whatever they may be is fine. Whether it be your opinion of them in general, or religious beliefs, doesn't bother me. It was the propaganda being spread by anti casino people that I'm talking about.

For example, I heard anti casino people telling people to vote no...but when asked if one was going to go in Sumner county any way, they would say NO, it hasn't been voted on yet. But the fact was it had been voted on and the vote was YES. People in favor of casinos were being labeled as evil people by those vocally against casinos. All I have to say to them is thanks for voting the money out of Wichita.

Yeah, the crappy arena that Wichita is building is already out-of-date. Everyone around us has larger arenas, KC, OKC, Tulsa, Little Rock, Omaha. We can't even get an NCAA first and second round site because of our small arena. Whack ass city and whack ass conservatives.

Another reason I'm glad I'm out of town. I voted yes because it was either that or nothing, which in this case, it barely beats nothing at all. The funny thing is I've done some researching on the other nearby arenas and their projects. They all had detailed drawings and pictures and clear-cut facts. I check the Sedgwick County arena website from time to time, and I barely know what the inside is gonna look like. It's unbelievable how backwards Wichita really is.

Oh and the NCAA tournament hosting is still within reach. The minimum seating requirements are still at 12,000, but they'll probably raise that to 15 or so sometime soon, and of course, we build for the minimum. But I get your point. Even though we're eligible, why should the NCAA pick Wichita when there's a half dozen BIGGER, MORE revenue-producing arenas all a hop, skip, and jump away? Yep, way to go Wichita... Build for now, who cares about later!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

[SB Shock]

So the people listening to their pastor preach about a topic to vote on in the election, are watching their churches tax exemptions go by the wayside.

I don't see what the issue with a pastor discussing the issue on how the relate to the bible. Churches must be able to address moral issues, and moral issues also are political issues - no way around it.

I believe the law doesn't forbid discussion of the issues, but they can't take a partisan stand for individual candidate.

I also believe that if a church believe strongly about an issue, they shouldn't worry about their tax exempt status. They should be driven to do the right thing, regardless of the consequences. God takes care of his church.

I also don't believe those who go to church are a bunch of sheep who blindly follow their pastors as some would hint at.

Now you may wonder why Christians believe gambling is wrong, well here are some of the reason:

1. Parishoners are educated enough to know the odds are against you. If you gamble long enough your going to lose.

2. It's irresponsible stewardship. Your throwing away God's resources.

3. 10th commandment - thall shall not covet. The gambling greediness is a symptom where we are not happy with what God has given us, and we somehow think more money will make us happy.

4. It exploits others. People who can least afford it are usually the biggest victims.

He who oppresses the poor to get gain for himself, and he who gives to the rich will surely come to want" (Proverbs 22:16).

5. Denies God's sovereignty. Your relying on chance instead of God.

6. Goes against biblical work ethic. God commanded man to work for a living in honest labor, by that which is morally good and productive.

7. Gambling is addictive. Christians are suppose to excersize "self-control in all things".

"He who tills his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows frivolity will have poverty enough!"(Proverbs 28:19 NKJV)

[RoyalShock]

Thanks, SB. You nailed it.

[kcshocker11]

So the people listening to their pastor preach about a topic to vote on in the election, are watching their churches tax exemptions go by the wayside.

I don't see what the issue with a pastor discussing the issue on how the relate to the bible. Churches must be able to address moral issues, and moral issues also are political issues - no way around it.

I believe the law doesn't forbid discussion of the issues, but they can't take a partisan stand for individual candidate.

I also believe that if a church believe strongly about an issue, they shouldn't worry about their tax exempt status. They should be driven to do the right thing, regardless of the consequences. God takes care of his church.

I also don't believe those who go to church are a bunch of sheep who blindly follow their pastors as some would hint at.

Now you may wonder why Christians believe gambling is wrong, well here are some of the reason:

1. Parishoners are educated enough to know the odds are against you. If you gamble long enough your going to lose.

2. It's irresponsible stewardship. Your throwing away God's resources.

3. 10th commandment - thall shall not covet. The gambling greediness is a symptom where we are not happy with what God has given us, and we somehow think more money will make us happy.

4. It exploits others. People who can least afford it are usually the biggest victims.

He who oppresses the poor to get gain for himself, and he who gives to the rich will surely come to want" (Proverbs 22:16).

5. Denies God's sovereignty. Your relying on chance instead of God.

6. Goes against biblical work ethic. God commanded man to work for a living in honest labor, by that which is morally good and productive.

7. Gambling is addictive. Christians are suppose to excersize "self-control in all things".

"He who tills his land will have plenty of bread, but he who follows frivolity

will have poverty enough!"(Proverbs 28:19 NKJV)

There goes those bleeding heart liberals again, thinking the know whats best for everyone else! :D 8) 8)

[WSU Shocker]

I agree with SubGod and SB. I just don't see it as being progressive when people throw their money away to huge corporations and the government, all in the name of "entertainment". Ask Charlse Barkley how gambling has affested his life.

[shockandawe08]

I may be too close to this topic to be objective, since I have a close relative for whom no occasion is too special to attend if a casino or bingo parlor is open. I have scoured libraries and the Internet trying to find some way to help this person understand there is a problem, and also find out why it bothers me so much. No offense to anyone trying to denounce gambling on religious grounds, but that just didn't cut it for me. I prefer to attack it on moral grounds, as in doing the right thing. I found what I was looking for in a book published in 1908, "Pearls from Many Seas."
I am no sanctimonious prude. We all have our vices. Right now, my favorite one is Sara Lee's Cheesecake Bites. :D
Anyway, if anyone is interested in some excerpts from the book, read my next post. If not, skip it. :)

[shockandawe08]

Arguments against gambling...

"That it tends toward the ruin of the gambler; that it risks the welfare of family and friends; that it alienates from business and leads into bad company...These are the reasons given for condemning the practice.
Rarely is gambling condemned because it is a kind of action by which pleasure is obtained at the cost of pain to another. The normal obtainment of gratification, or of the money which purchases gratification, implies, first, that there has been put forth equivalent effort of a kind which, in some way, furthers the general good; second, that those from whom the money is obtained get, directly or indirectly, equivalent satisfaction.
But in gambling, the opposite happens. Benefit received does not imply effort put forth, and the happiness of the winner involves the misery of the loser. This kind of action is, therefore, ANTI-SOCIAL. It sears the sympathies, cultivates a hard egoism, and so produces a general deterioration of character and conduct." - HUGH PRICE HUGHES

We've all gambled, though, according to J.E. STARR, who wrote that "if you propose to get property upon any hazard, you propose to get it by gambling; and the man who, upon any hazard, wins property, is morally a thief, and guilty of stealing. He who loses is an accessory to the crime."

STARR considered gambling to include card-playing, pool, lottery tickets, raffles, dealing in stocks and real estate and getting a prize for being the first to answer in a contest.
Harsh! Like I said, we have ALL gambled.
I admit I don't know the solution. :(

[C0|dB|00ded]

My contention now as was from the very beginning, is that Wichitan's never had a choice to vote against a casino. A casino was going in south-central Kansas regardless if Sedgwick voted it out. Religious as well as some local civic leaders cast the referendum in a light as if the people were being empowered to save their children from the evils of gambling and all the mafia that subsequently would have swarmed over our little city. The studies were clear that the vast majority of gambling was going to come from Wichita regardless of whether it was put in Mulvane, Wellington, or Sedgwick county. I as well as any other sound thinking person assumed it would go into Mulvane (which is 3 miles from Derby and 7 from Wichita). The state is looking to milk this casino for all its worth. If it was projected to make the most money in Mulvane, where do you think it was going to go?

So with all the misinformation in place and the ministers of Wichita playing Mayor to their congregations as well as setting up a full-blown campaign in the church, Wichita was destined to be punished. I know that the clergy had good intentions, but they were grossly uninformed on the issue. They pushed their agenda "in the name of God" regardless of whether they had any solid biblical basis for doing so. That is one reason why "the church" shouldn't be politically involved in the community. There is no way they can be unbiased when looking at the issue without adding their specific denominational/religious spin on things and the community as a whole can suffer because of it.

The second major reason that the church shouldn't be involved in government as was set forth by our country's forefathers, is because many horrible things have occurred on this planet in the name of one man's "god". The Christians, Catholics, Muslims, and many other religious institutions are guilty.

Hopefully I can further elucidate my point with a short story.

Once upon a time there was another little "Wichita" somewhere that was full of evil. Along came a religious group with morals and rules and a charismatic leader. By some miracle laws were passed upon the churches recommendation and the city became a better place. "We are geniuses" the church and city leaders thought. All we have to do is make our religious laws a part of government and we will have created a sinless Utopia. Eventually as government began to answer more and more to the church the church was given total control of the government (it seemed like a natural process to everybody anyway...). Years passed and new laws were created as the civilization evolved and grew. Then one day a new "high priest", who was a bit of a nut-job gained power. She had a different idea of what "god" wanted out of his people and began to govern accordingly. A new government religion was created and all were instructed to practice it. Now the original founders of this "utopia" discovered that they were now pagans who worshiped a pagan religion. The government found this "sect" guilty of idolatry and all were sentenced to death.

This my friends is why I get nervous when my pastor strays from the bible on Sunday morning and starts instructing the congregation on how to vote.


"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."


T


...8)

[shockandawe08]

Ah, criminy! Why do you have to make the nut-job a SHE? ;-) And wouldn't that make her a high priestess? :roll: :lol:

[C0|dB|00ded]

A little bit on the bible and gambling...

Let me first start off by saying that NOWHERE in the bible is gambling, betting, or the lottery condemned. This means that man is acting on behalf of man, in the name of God, for the sake of political instruction. That should scare the pants of those that can comprehend it. True, those pastors who rose up against the "casino vote" surely believed it was God's will to blindly oppose this referendum and instruct their congregations to follow suit, but who's to say they were right? The bible didn't instruct them in that way.. The bible is the ONLY source for the "word of God", unless you are of the faith that believes your leader is also a prophet or was given some spiritual ordination to ad lib.

The bible warns us to stay away from the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10; Hebrews 13:5)

The majority of people that gamble do so for the thrill. A risk is being taken and a reward is a possibility. How does God define a love of money? Does the corporate executive that works 70 hours a week so he can pay for his nice home, cars, and his children's education love money? he devotes nearly his entire lifetime to earning it? How about the family that goes off to Vegas once a year to play the slot machines and take in a couple shows, however when they return home they work average hours as school teachers and devote much time to their family and church. Are they more guilty of "loving money" than our workaholic executive who our society (as well as the church) holds high with praise? These are the questions that must be answered by each and every one of us.

The bible also encourages us to stay away from attempts to "get rich quick" (Proverbs 13:11; 23:5; Ecclesiastes 5:10).

One could extrapolate that to apply to gambling. But in their heart of hearts, who really goes to the casino to "get rich quick"? Anybody I have ever talked to that gambles, goes for the entertainment, food, and "excitement". Unless you're a moron, you know the odds are against you walking away with much more than what you came with.

Gambling in moderation is surely a waste of money but is no more evil than buying an $8.00 dollar movie ticket and some $5.00 dollar pop corn or spending $100.00 at P.F. Chang's, or going shopping and buying an $800.00 suit. One could easily make an argument that buying luxury vehicles or expensive houses is a "waste of money".

The bible does discuss chance or luck like when Joshua cast lots to determine the allotment of land to the various tribes. Nehemiah also cast lots to determine who would live inside the walls of Jerusalem. Another example is when the apostles cast lots to determine the replacement for Judas.

Proverbs 16:33 says, “The lot is cast in the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”


Another couple verses that are good to live buy and should be interpreted by each and every one of us in how it applies to our lives.


1 Timothy 6:10 tells us, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." Hebrews 13:5 declares, "Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." Matthew 6:24 proclaims, "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."



P.S.

Just for my reader's enjoyment, let me say that I have gambled only a few times in my entire life. A couple times at the old Greyhound Park and once in St. Louis and once in Kansas City. I am proud to say that I am ahead of the casinos and most likely will be for the rest of my life. :) I am not a big fan of casinos because they really don't do anything for me and I don't get excited when I go (mostly annoyed because of the noise and smoke), but in Wichita's situation, it should have passed.


Okay, I am done on this topic! :shock:


T


...8)

[DUShock]

T I am impressed. I may not entirely agree but your position is well reasoned (a big thing to we Anglican/Episcopalians) and succinctly communicated.

Go Shocks!!!!

[SpanglerFan316]

I oppose gambling. On the other hand, I would prefer Wichita and Sedgwick County benefit if there "has" to be a casino in the local area. We got the worst of both worlds - (i) local gambling and (ii) no tax revenue or entertainment complex in Wichita.

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

I agree with SubGod and SB. I just don't see it as being progressive when people throw their money away to huge corporations and the government, all in the name of "entertainment". Ask Charlse Barkley how gambling has affested his life.

Wichita is filled with hughe corporations and goverment though.

Whenever you go to the movies you are giving your money to a corporation and now the goverment.
Where do you do your grocery shopping? chances are its either Walmart or kroger
where do you buy your clothes?
IMO thats a pretty poor example. And if corporations and Goverment isnt running a casino then gambling happens to be illegal. Setup a dice game this afternoon in your garage then call the police over to check things out and see what they have to say.

2. - Charles Barkley hardly gives a crap about his gambling "problem" considering he said he was X amount of dollars in debt and was able to write a check and be done with it. Thats a really piss poor example.

As far as the casino issue is concerned - I dont gamble. If im going to lose money I would rather have something material in its place. (food,clothes,etc)
But Wichita missed out not getting a casino, restaurants, hotels another entertainement venue for concerts and shows, etc

people need to stop worrying about there neighbor. Unless they are causing PHYSICAL harm to themselves, their family or others around them who gives a rats ass if they go spend 20 bucks a night in the slot machine. Its not your business. And if a husband is dumb enough to spend his families life savings at a casino then his wife is even dumber for staying with him.

As far as the pastor comments go we live in a society now where these people pull alot of weight. And thats fine I understand they are "spirtual advisors" and help you "get right" and so forth. But to me everything seems to be about religion these days.
Im not a very religious person what so ever and have actually been put off by all the talk. I dont care what a candidates religon is because in the end it should be about his policies.

blah who really cares I guess Ill hang out at my sister in laws more now since she lives in Mulvane.