Educational system reforms

[SHOCKvalue]

There are orders of magnitude of people in our economy that did not choose wisely during major choice, and are hence now working at the rental desk of Enterprise, or as a Starbucks barista, and have without a doubt a worse situation than a teacher. Literally (and I mean literally) every teacher I know, or my wife knows, has a standard of living that is middle class at worst and upper-middle class at best, drives an above-average car and lives in a home of above-average value, enjoys approximately 4 months off in total per year, and generally has fantastic benefits. It is not a bad career, not a bad educational choice, nor a bad career choice.

This concept that a college education should guarantee wealth (or really anything) is a silly one to me. It is part of the entitlement mentality in our country. Not to partially repeat myself, but a couple coming out of WSU can spend as little as roughly $50K for their two degrees, and make close to $80K combined in their first year out of the gate. Sure, the curve up from there in earnings is not steep, but nor it is in many other fields.

Education is a perfectly reasonable major choice, with reasonable earnings potential. At the most basic of levels, looking at teacher earnings contrasted with overall earnings percentiles, should indicate this in a very obvious manner. The majority of this country is in a worse financial position due to career/education choice than the typical school teacher... literally.

[ShockBand]

There are orders of magnitude of people in our economy that did not choose wisely during major choice, and are hence now working at the rental desk of Enterprise, or as a Starbucks barista, and have without a doubt a worse situation than a teacher. Literally (and I mean literally) every teacher I know, or my wife knows, has a standard of living that is middle class at worst and upper-middle class at best, drives an above-average car and lives in a home of above-average value, enjoys approximately 4 months off in total per year, and generally has fantastic benefits. It is not a bad career, not a bad educational choice, nor a bad career choice.

This concept that a college education should guarantee wealth (or really anything) is a silly one to me. It is part of the entitlement mentality in our country. Not to partially repeat myself, but a couple coming out of WSU can spend as little as roughly $50K for their two degrees, and make close to $80K combined in their first year out of the gate. Sure, the curve up from there in earnings is not steep, but nor it is in many other fields.

Education is a perfectly reasonable major choice, with reasonable earnings potential. At the most basic of levels, looking at teacher earnings contrasted with overall earnings percentiles, should indicate this in a very obvious manner. The majority of this country is in a worse financial position due to career/education choice than the typical school teacher... literally.

Agreed, in most cases. I'm sure there are pockets in some states where pay level is dismal, but for the vast majority, yes education is a reasonable and reasonably stable field in terms of income. I'm not getting rich, but I'm certainly not poor, and since I budget right, I rarely have to panic about money. Now if SASO dues keep climbing, I might have to moonlight at QT... MUST. HAVE. SHOCKER. BASKETBALL.

[Rlh04d]

This concept that a college education should guarantee wealth (or really anything) is a silly one to me. It is part of the entitlement mentality in our country. Not to partially repeat myself, but a couple coming out of WSU can spend as little as roughly $50K for their two degrees, and make close to $80K combined in their first year out of the gate. Sure, the curve up from there in earnings is not steep, but nor it is in many other fields.

Or they can join the Air Force at 18 and make over $80k combined in their first year out of the gate, plus signing bonus, and have ~40 credits down without taking a single class, to work on planes in Wichita, and go to school for free instead of paying back their $50k in education expenses.

I'm not arguing teachers are impoverished. And I'm not arguing that college education should guarantee wealth. I'm arguing that when you pay a poor ROI for a career field that requires a college diploma you attract poorer quality instructors. Economic considerations determine career choice: few people choose to take less money than they are capable of earning. When you pay lower scale wages you attract lower quality workers. When you attract lower quality workers with the career of educating the youth, you have lower educated youth.

Which part of these would you disagree with:

Paying teachers more would attract more intelligent and harder working people to the career field.
More intelligent and harder working teachers would improve education.

[pinstripers]

Not sure I would agree with either.

[SHOCKvalue]

Good point. Has anyone factored in the additional hours required outside of teaching hours in building curriculum, grading homework, furthering their own education, etc., etc.?

I'm not sure. Would you like me to ask my wife to respond? She just got home a few minutes ago around 5PM, after a day that started a little before 8AM. This is every day for her, for the most part. That's actually about 1 1/2 hours over the minimum time required by her contract. Oh... and the PTA recently bought her flowers in appreciation of the quality of her work. She drove home from work in her 13 month old car that had a MSRP of $36K, that she pays for herself. In about another 4 weeks she will have nearly three entire months off to sit and around and paint her toenails, if she so pleases.

She has a terrible, terrible life.

[SHOCKvalue]

Or they can join the Air Force at 18 and make over $80k combined in their first year out of the gate, plus signing bonus, and have ~40 credits down without taking a single class, to work on planes in Wichita, and go to school for free instead of paying back their $50k in education expenses.

I'm not arguing teachers are impoverished. And I'm not arguing that college education should guarantee wealth. I'm arguing that when you pay a poor ROI for a career field that requires a college diploma you attract poorer quality instructors. Economic considerations determine career choice: few people choose to take less money than they are capable of earning. When you pay lower scale wages you attract lower quality workers. When you attract lower quality workers with the career of educating the youth, you have lower educated youth.

Which part of these would you disagree with:

Paying teachers more would attract more intelligent and harder working people to the career field.
More intelligent and harder working teachers would improve education.

Your entire premise is built upon the assumption that people are solely motivated by money in life?

[Rlh04d]

Your entire premise is built upon the assumption that people are solely motivated by money in life?

My entire premise is built upon the assumption that, when you take people in large quantities, the majority are motivated by money in life.

Many teachers are motivated by a desire to do the greater good. Probably the majority in fact. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that many people who are motivated by money would be good teachers, and almost certainly better teachers in many cases.

I would never become a teacher, because it would require me to take a 50% paycut over even what I made in the military. There's an amount of money I would take to work towards the greater good. It's not 50%.

[Rlh04d]

Not sure I would agree with either.

Feel free to expound on why, then.

A discussion board is a good venue for participating in discussion.

[shockmonster]

I'm not sure. Would you like me to ask my wife to respond? She just got home a few minutes ago around 5PM, after a day that started a little before 8AM. This is every day for her, for the most part. That's actually about 1 1/2 hours over the minimum time required by her contract. Oh... and the PTA recently bought her flowers in appreciation of the quality of her work. She drove home from work in her 13 month old car that had a MSRP of $36K, that she pays for herself.

She has a terrible, terrible life.

Your wife doesn't sound like she works very hard. I do know a lot of teachers who put in a lot of extra hours and pay a monthly amount of their money on their classrooms. It differs with each person. As it's been stated on here teachers aren't impoverished. Starting teachers do probably make approximately 35,000 K per year but as teachers reach 14 years, they are at the top of their income ladder at 50-55,000 K. in Wichita. If you have a doctorate, you can make maybe 60,000k. Area districts may make a little less at the beginning but they usually make more at the end.

As a comparison, a close relative of mine made a starting salary as a construction manager with a bachelors in the 50,000 K+ category with much better health insurance.

[SHOCKvalue]

My entire premise is built upon the assumption that, when you take people in large quantities, the majority are motivated by money in life.

Many teachers are motivated by a desire to do the greater good. Probably the majority in fact. That doesn't have anything to do with the fact that many people who are motivated by money would be good teachers, and almost certainly better teachers in many cases.

I would never become a teacher, because it would require me to take a 50% paycut over even what I made in the military. There's an amount of money I would take to work towards the greater good. It's not 50%.

I'd really love to see that 50% claim itemized and broken down.

[Rlh04d]

Your wife doesn't sound like she works very hard.

To be fair, he said her work hours, not whether or not she puts in extra work after that. Many teachers grade papers from home.

[Rlh04d]

I'd really love to see that 50% claim itemized and broken down.

The average teacher in Hawaii makes $48,865. My salary in Hawaii included $54,081.59 a year tax free ... without my base pay. Assuming a flat 30% income tax, my non-base pay was the equivalent of $70,306.07. Base pay adds another $30,967.20/year, for a combined salary of $101,273.27, or 207% of the average teacher salary.

Which doesn't open the issue of insurance (medical/dental/life), enlistment bonus, or the $80k tax free I'll earn over the life of my GI Bill benefits. If I factored those in the true value of my military salary in Hawaii was closer to $135k/year.

Military pay is easy to figure out. You can itemize it yourself.

[SHOCKvalue]

Your wife doesn't sound like she works very hard.

Guess you missed the part where I inferred she was loved by parents due to her work performance. I would assume by that provocative comment you or someone close to you is a teacher, and it upsets you that another party who is a teacher could actually have a 40 hour/week job, while performing admirably. Sorry you or that other someone lacks the intelligence and efficiency of my wife. Some people become teachers because they love the field (my wife), others find themselves there because they couldn't eek it in a more strenuous academic field (you or yours perhaps?). Sorry about the sour grapes on the college degree back-up plan.

As a comparison, a close relative of mine made a starting salary as a construction manager with a bachelors in the 50,000 K+ category with much better health insurance.

I have absolute first-hand knowledge of the management side of commercial construction (in a past life). To even get your foot in the door as a project manager requires either an engineering degree, or a construction science/management degree. Both of those degrees are significantly more difficult as compared to an education degree, one drastically so. Further, PM's work hours greatly surpassing the average for a teacher - for 12 months of the year as opposed to 8. On the health insurance front, I'm not sure how you improve on USD 259's setup in the modern context of healthcare (it is free). If I had to choose between a $40K job as a teacher and a $50K job as a PM, I'm choosing the teacher gig every day of the week, no comparison.

[SHOCKvalue]

The average teacher in Hawaii makes $48,865. My salary in Hawaii included $54,081.59 a year tax free ... without my base pay. Assuming a flat 30% income tax, my non-base pay was the equivalent of $70,306.07. Base pay adds another $30,967.20/year, for a combined salary of $101,273.27, or 207% of the average teacher salary.

Which doesn't open the issue of insurance (medical/dental/life), enlistment bonus, or the $80k tax free I'll earn over the life of my GI Bill benefits. If I factored those in the true value of my military salary in Hawaii was closer to $135k/year.

Military pay is easy to figure out. You can itemize it yourself.

No one on here lives in Hawaii, except for you. Most of us live in Wichita, which has a drastically cheaper COL.

The better comparison for most of us would be your salary for the same gig at McConnell (much lower pay right, due to much lower COL?), contrasted with a USD 259 teacher with the equivalent years of service. The gap would close immensely, I'm guessing.

[SB Shock]

The average teacher in Hawaii makes $48,865. My salary in Hawaii included $54,081.59 a year tax free ... without my base pay. Assuming a flat 30% income tax, my non-base pay was the equivalent of $70,306.07. Base pay adds another $30,967.20/year, for a combined salary of $101,273.27, or 207% of the average teacher salary.

Which doesn't open the issue of insurance (medical/dental/life), enlistment bonus, or the $80k tax free I'll earn over the life of my GI Bill benefits. If I factored those in the true value of my military salary in Hawaii was closer to $135k/year.

Military pay is easy to figure out. You can itemize it yourself.

So you are/were an E-5?

The rate of non-taxable benefits you are receiving in Hawaii is because the cost of living is so high. I would say you are over valuing what you think you are saving in tax savings (once you got done itimizing you probably would be paying very little) and not accounting for what the high cost of living in Hawaii is actually doing to reduce standard of living. Then if you are married, even if your spouse has a college education it is a lot more difficult to find a job, and if you do if won't pay likely at your experience level (because they know you will be likely transferred in 2-3 years). So there is another reduction in your standard of living due to having a military job.

I did a number of health and welfare checks and I would never say any of the enlisted soldiers were getting over on the system. For some it was pretty appalling the conditions they had to live in off base. Pretty much the community you are stationed knows what you are making for BAH based on your rank and will be pricing as such to make sure they take as much of that tax free money off your hands. If you are living on base, then tax free money is going away - and the quarters on base are hardly high class living.


As far as education - until parents (and their children) actually value getting an eduction - especially a higher education, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at it. I think the phrase "You lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" applies.