Educational system reforms

[Rlh04d]

USD 259 (Wichita schools for those out of the area) has a starting salary and pay scale that exceeds many suburban districts. My wife works for a suburban district and makes at least $10K-$15K less per year at this point (including salary and value of benefits) than if she would have instead taken the USD 259 offer out of college. A married couple of two USD 259 teachers just out of college would rank somewhere around the 70th percentile nationally for household income. That's not a low income level - not in any context or stretch of the imagination. As a general rule, the concept that teachers don't have two pennies to rub together and live in near poverty is a total farce nurtured by their unions.

So the fact that the average starting salary for a teacher with a Bachelor's Degree is ~$5k less a year than an 18 year old E1 in the military is a farce nurtured by teacher's unions?

The problem isn't that teachers are poor. The problem is that education has one of the single worst returns on investment of any college major, by far.

How much of the "70th percentile" below those two teachers would be single income families or families lacking college education? That's a manipulative statistic.

[SHOCKvalue]

For example, Shawnee Mission East near KC has $3200 per student and has an average teacher salary of $66,000. More rural Larned has $2600 per student and an average teacher salary of $35,000.

These figures do not sound realistic. I don't believe there is a single school district in the Wichita area that starts new grad teachers at $35K, to say nothing for an average of $35K across all faculty levels. At the same time the $66K average also sound out of bounds on the other side of the equation.

Somebody is monkey humping the numbers to further their cause.

[shocka khan]

These figures do not sound realistic. I don't believe there is a single school district in the Wichita area that starts new grad teachers at $35K, to say nothing for an average of $35K across all faculty levels. At the same time the $66K average also sound out of bounds on the other side of the equation.

Somebody is monkey humping the numbers to further their cause.

I agree. I knew a teacher here in Houston who had her master's degree, was a track coach and volunteered for any salary-upping scheme she could get herself into (including teaching at alternative school).

She still made low 60's when she retired about 5 years ago. I don't buy 66K per year.

I know Kansas pays their teachers well (and as a father of a teacher I still think they're underpaid). The unions have some ridiculous rules sometimes (job protection) but when I see some of our local 'management' (principals and up) I can see why they need a union. Many of the administrators in inner-city Houston are knuckleheads (as is our superintendent).

For full disclosure, my daughter teaches in the 'burbs, not in Houston.

[SHOCKvalue]

So the fact that the average starting salary for a teacher with a Bachelor's Degree is ~$5k less a year than an 18 year old E1 in the military is a farce nurtured by teacher's unions?

The problem isn't that teachers are poor. The problem is that education has one of the single worst returns on investment of any college major, by far.

This argument that somehow a soldier should come in lower than a teacher in earnings is foreign to me. I'm not quite sure how to respond, frankly. I'm fine with a soldier making more than a teacher. Why is this a problem?

An education degree has a lower ROI than engineering, health professions, business, and natural sciences? Sure. An education degree has a lower ROI than a liberal arts/sciences or humanities degree. No... I mean in what world?

[jdshock]

These figures do not sound realistic. I don't believe there is a single school district in the Wichita area that starts new grad teachers at $35K, to say nothing for an average of $35K across all faculty levels. At the same time the $66K average also sound out of bounds on the other side of the equation.

Somebody is monkey humping the numbers to further their cause.

I mean... I don't know how the process works, but it would be the school districts "monkey humping" the numbers that they report to the Department of Education.

If you want to argue with it, though, why don't you try citing a source that says suburban KC schools don't have an average salary of 66k rather than just saying "I dunno, man... doesn't sound right to me." Those were the figures that I pulled directly from the Department of Education's website that I linked to.

[Rlh04d]

I don't believe there is a single school district in the Wichita area that starts new grad teachers at $35K

You'd be wrong.

https://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-average-starting-teacher-salary.html

[Rlh04d]

This argument that somehow a soldier should come in lower than a teacher in earnings is foreign to me. I'm not quite sure how to respond, frankly. I'm fine with a soldier making more than a teacher. Why is this a problem?

An education degree has a lower ROI than engineering, health professions, business, and natural sciences? Sure. An education degree has a lower ROI than a liberal arts/sciences or humanities degree. No... I mean in what world?

The argument that somehow an 18 year old in the military, with no discernible skills or education, and no war to fight, should be making more than a college educated adult with the responsibility of ensuring the quality of the next generation is foreign to me. And I literally JUST left military service. The military gives vast benefits to young soldiers like free education while you're in, free education plus BAH if you leave, signing bonuses, reenlistment bonuses, a trade for many people that would otherwise never have one, virtually hands you an AA degree in the Air Force, and on and on and on, ON TOP of a better income than a college educated teacher. There's a reason I knew a dozen former teachers who joined the military as enlisted personnel.

The fact that it's NOT a problem to people is why our education system in this country is a joke. We've come a long way in our country's treatment of military from the Vietnam War, and I'm tremendously proud of the way this country respects it's military now ... but members of the military are no more vital to the future of the United States than teachers are. And yet the military are heroes and teachers are continuously disrespected.

As for your other point:

Average 20-year annual return on investment: The ROI is between -16.7% and 4.6%, depending on school choice. The average ROI for the largest five schools is -11.2%.

http://www.cheatsheet.com/personal-finance/5-college-degrees-that-provide-the-worst-return-on-investment.html/?a=viewall

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/top-20-college-degrees-best-worst/story?id=19364365#17

http://www.salary.com/8-college-degrees-with-the-worst-return-on-investment/

http://lifehacker.com/the-college-degrees-with-the-worst-return-on-your-mone-1592079715

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/03/these-us-colleges-and-majors-are-the-biggest-waste-of-money/359653/

Google worst major for return on investment. Education is prominently featured on every single one.

[SHOCKvalue]

You'd be wrong.

https://www.nea.org/home/2012-2013-a...er-salary.html

Did you really just try to fact me by linking a source from the country's largest teacher union, with a figure that contextually does not even coincide with my statement?

[Rlh04d]

Did you really just try to fact me by linking a source from the country's largest teacher union, with a figure that contextually does not even coincide with my statement?

I misread your point on Wichita as all of Kansas.

I'm happy to see your evidence of your statement, though. Feel free to prove it.

[jdshock]

I misread your point on Wichita as all of Kansas.

Which was a fair thing to do since he was responding to a point about rural school districts with a point about Wichita salaries.

[Rlh04d]

Starting salary for a Wichita teacher is $37,998 a year, according to district officials.

http://www.kansas.com/news/article1093594.html

Salary.com shows 10% of Wichita high school teachers making $32.8k or less, though:

http://www1.salary.com/KS/Wichita/high-school-teacher-salary.html

The bottom 10% of Elementary School Teachers in Wichita, Kansas earn: $32,580

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/elementary-school-teacher/salary/Kansas/

[WuDrWu]

Could it be that your point is that teachers are overpaid to teach kids to be teachers?

Maybe it's the insane price of higher education that affects the ROI. And has anyone factored in the value of a 4 month vaca into that ROI?

[The Mad Hatter]

Worthwhile read:

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/why-do-teachers-quit/280699/

[ShockBand]

Wichita area public schools are all pretty much in the upper 30s for starting salaries for first year teachers. Most top out for the most experienced teachers with the highest levels of education attained somewhere in the 60s. Wichita in the low 60s, most suburban schools in the mid to upper 60s, based on 2014-15 salary schedules found online at district websites. The giant difference that Wichita has is in how health insurance is handled. Most suburban schools contract health insurance out to the Coventries and Blue Crosses of the world, and premiums, IIRC, tend to run in the low 100s per month for single coverage to several hundred per month for full family coverage. Wichita, on the other hand, is a self-insured system that uses Coventry as third-party administrator. They place a specific amount of money into the health insurance pool each month for each employee (over $600 per month at least, or at least last I knew), and that is the money claims are paid out from. A teacher does not pay a monthly premium for him or herself and children, so long as they meet certain wellness guidelines and are not a tobacco user, otherwise some premiums do kick in. To add a spouse costs $100 per month. That insurance difference is absolutely the key leverage USD 259 has in attracting teachers, it can be a difference of several thousand dollars per year.

[Rlh04d]

Could it be that your point is that teachers are overpaid to teach kids to be teachers?

Maybe it's the insane price of higher education that affects the ROI. And has anyone factored in the value of a 4 month vaca into that ROI?

Good point. Has anyone factored in the additional hours required outside of teaching hours in building curriculum, grading homework, furthering their own education, etc., etc.?

It could be that my point is that the United States will not survive in the world economy in future generations if our education system continues to decline at the rate it has been, and further disrespecting teachers is probably not the way to change that.