Riverfront Legacy Masterplan

[WstateU]

You pretty much nailed everything. I'm ALL for progress and bringing this city into the modern age but we fail so badly at doing things, it gives me pause. The arena is the perfect example. The idea was great in that we needed a new modern facility downtown. The execution and result sucked ass. We got a low-ceiling, one-side suited goofy mess probably just save another 5%. Typical. The baseball stadium is also a GREAT vision and idea. But $90 mil and we get that? This looks like a $50 mil stadium. Again I guess I'll wait on this one because it's not finished yet but good lord the numbers don't look right. We also put in like $30 million for a glorified homeless shelter. Libraries are pretty much dated. I'm not saying they shouldn't exist but to spend $30 million on a place that roughly .5% of the population uses (and 50% of that population are only losing it as a temporary refuge point) is just mind-blowing. And like you said, ONE BILLION DOLLARS (queue Dr. Evil) is a HUGE amount for what seems to be portrayed. Again, I want a legacy plan downtown and connecting all that with the stadium should theoretically blend well together. But again, I have my doubts with this gov't executing on big money items. It needs to happen but I just don't trust it happening well from them. Their track record sucks.

Regardless, I like to see Wichita thinking big... "ONE BILLION DOLLARS" immediately gets my attention.



Looks like I'm in the minority here (probably my age showing); I like Century II and always have... like it or not, it's a Wichita landmark and I'd like to think there's a way to 'repurpose' the building and still build a new convention center/arts/complex, etc. Yes, I'll be sad if they tear it down, but I do see the arguments to do so. Wichita has laid some massive turds in my lifetime, but there's reason for optimism... just hope they don't screw this one up.

[Shock Top]

Private money and development is there.

Wichita, especially for its size, has a lot of great and well respected commercial real estate minds.

I know it's easy for me just to say that, but working in the industry I know it to be true.

[SHOCKvalue]

Private money and development is there.

Wichita, especially for its size, has a lot of great and well respected commercial real estate minds.

I know it's easy for me just to say that, but working in the industry I know it to be true.

Private money is certainly there - a lot of it as well - it is just being mostly held in personal portfolio, permanently. And that is totally fine, as private individuals in a democratic society, but it does put Wichita behind the 8 ball when it comes to funding big ticket community amenities.

Whereas most cities' "Koch" or "Ruffin" are happy to have their name all over a shiny new performing arts center, here that doesn't really happen. I mean Charles Koch gave $10M for the Roundhouse Renaissance and I think about half that much for the new Athletic/Academic Center under construction, but they aren't likely to give $100M (or whatever) to a $300M theater. If they do I'll be floored.

I don't know that it has anything to do with the relative intelligence or competency of those in Wichita commercial RE. Moreso the tightness of purse strings.

[Shock Top]

A random thought I just had, but maybe Chuck will donate a bunch to the performing arts center in memory of David. David was a big supporter of the arts in NYC.

Would be a very nice and touching tribute that Wichita could enjoy for many years to come.

[Shock Top]

Private money is certainly there - a lot of it as well - it is just being mostly held in personal portfolio, permanently. And that is totally fine, as private individuals in a democratic society, but it does put Wichita behind the 8 ball when it comes to funding big ticket community amenities.

Whereas most cities' "Koch" or "Ruffin" are happy to have their name all over a shiny new performing arts center, here that doesn't really happen. I mean Charles Koch gave $10M for the Roundhouse Renaissance and I think about half that much for the new Athletic/Academic Center under construction, but they aren't likely to give $100M (or whatever) to a $300M theater. If they do I'll be floored.

I don't know that it has anything to do with the relative intelligence or competency of those in Wichita commercial RE. Moreso the tightness of purse strings.

Just because it is private money, doesn't mean it has to be private money from Wichita.

Investments in real estate go further here than on the coasts.

[SHOCKvalue]

Just because it is private money, doesn't mean it has to be private money from Wichita.

Investments in real estate go further here than on the coasts.

I think you're speaking to a different context. I'm talking about philanthropic donations on large scale community amenities, which give exactly nothing back outside of goodwill and PR.

There's plenty of interest in PPP development where money appears to go down a black hole to only reappear as smaller dollars seemingly underpinning the actual brick and mortar that gets built. It is a FANTASTIC "investment" if one is fiscally scaled and connected at such a level in order to participate. If there was a REIT for this mechanism in the Wichita market, I'd invest everything I have in it.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Well hotel rooms also depend on the convention center. We could add 500 rooms, but with a useless CC, they would be wasted. So build a new CC, then expand the Hyatt by 250-300 rooms. Most larger conventions want a headquarter hotel where they can put majority of their folks, with a few additional overflow hotels nearby. But the Hyatt can't sustain 550+ rooms without serious convention business. If they build a forward looking CC, and additional 250 hotel could be built at some point in the future nearby.

Awesome, thanks for your insight.

So what you're essentially saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is there actually isn't a shortage now because the shitty CC is limiting the number and size of conventions Wichita can expect to book. There would be a shortage with a good CC because the number and size of conventions can reasonably be expected to significantly increase.

I guess what I'm trying to get to is with a new CC, Wichita needs to think beyond just expanding the Hyatt. AND THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO HEAR THIS. They need to understand how a new CC can spur additional development, business, and thus the economy.

Personal anecdote: I visited town for the 2018 NCAA tournament. My wife and I tried to book a hotel room downtown months in advance, but there wasn't an open hotel room for miles. I think since then a couple of hotels have opened up. Hopefully, we're able to get a room for the 2021 tournament. The tournament showed a lack of hotel rooms downtown. Investment followed.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

You want conventions in Wichita? Then you've got to make conventions in Wichita REALLY attractive. We've got to appeal to absolutely every small minority of visitors at that convention.

I want a better community, but if we're going to spend a billion on a convention center and a performing arts center, we'd better be able to attract a boatload of conventions.



That's a little like saying "All Indians walk single file, at least the one I knew did".

On a fairly recent trip to Dallas, I caught a shuttle from the airport to my hotel. One of the passengers asked the driver his most popular destination. He responded with a list of the most popular "gentlemen's" clubs in Dallas. I recognized one of them from a company-paid visit I had to one of them.

I won't disagree with your point that you have to make Wichita really attractive. But I will disagree with your methodology.

Fun fact: one of the most popular convention cities is Indianapolis. I've been there for a convention. They don't have a casino downtown, nor do they have many gentlemen's clubs (one, I think). What they do have is a fantastic convention facility, a shitload of hotel rooms, some cool bars and restaurants to hang out, and a few cool museums. They do have a brown river to go look at close by, for what it's worth. The way their downtown is laid out, it actually resembled Wichita on steroids.

From an outsider's perspective (I haven't lived in Wichita for 12 years), what Wichita is trying to do is entirely possible. In fact, it's probable in my opinion. But it HAS to have a good facility and good supporting infrastructure like hotels, restaurants, bars, and activities within walking distance. The community will need to step up, but it won't be an unreasonably large step.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Thirdly, when have we EVER done one of these projects well? The best case example is IBA, and the bang-for-the buck on that project is really not great. We got a goofy design with the bare minimum of seating capacity, crammed in like sardines, in a critical mass no-mans-land area of downtown Wichita that is just now getting a pulse to the north but is otherwise dead on the table in all other directions. There are even serious concerns over the new ballpark; some really weird/underwhelming crap going on there too. Basically, if there is a way to screw up a major public, or public-private project, Wichita is the "here, hold my beer" king of the universe. Are we going to have an out-of-body experience and suddenly change? Probably not. Just being realistic.

I have the same concerns. Wichita infamously looks to cut corners or save a buck here and there, and as a result everything is half assed. I haven't seen anything yet to make me think this project will be any different.

Oh... and Waterwalk sucks because dumbarse Carlos Mayans ran off Bass Pro Shops who was in the bag, over sale-leaseback terms (IIRC) BPS was getting everywhere else at the time. Property was bought, dirt was moving, BPS committed, and money already spent, and we ran off the keystone to that development in favor of the Gander Mountain half-arse fiasco. Go ask Tom Johnson, who was heading up the project at the time. Ironically, the big redevelopment plan at hand looks to undo a lot of the mess created by Waterwalk, which is awesome in and of itself.

I'm glad you brought this up. Everyone is quick to criticize Waterwalk for being crappy. And it is, don't get me wrong. But it's because Mayans was a complete and total dumbass and drove away the key to the entire project. And why? See above. I actually believe WW would have been successful if Bass Pro had ended up building their facility.

[SHOCKvalue]

I have the same concerns. Wichita infamously looks to cut corners or save a buck here and there, and as a result everything is half assed. I haven't seen anything yet to make me think this project will be any different.



I'm glad you brought this up. Everyone is quick to criticize Waterwalk for being crappy. And it is, don't get me wrong. But it's because Mayans was a complete and total dumbass and drove away the key to the entire project. And why? See above. I actually believe WW would have been successful if Bass Pro had ended up building their facility.

If BPS would have anchored WW, and if the steering committee in charge of the IBA location decision a couple years later would have chosen the site option right across Main St from WW, we would probably not even be having this conversation. Everything south of Waterman and the Hyatt would be in awesome shape. Instead, we'd just be talking about the CII vs new performing arts and convention conundrum, as opposed to the full redevelopment of the entire SW 1/4 of downtown proper currently at hand.

Plans laid early, grow to reality later, or some such wise man quote that's not coming to me right now.

[WstateU]

Not sure I'm sold on the $330 million price tag (12 acres/29% of project) for "Green Space" (however the renderings show a huge yellow "SHOX" landmark that looks kinda cool), but it could turn into a homeless haven... so some people would be happy.

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

Thinking back to my daughters cheer days. Most if not all competitions are held in convention centers

If you ever been to one of those then you know you would love nothing more to cancel two additional trips. But you also know Cheer (much like Soccer) moms need two things close by, shopping and food. Pending on numbers, that's a lot of managers needed to harass. You hate to see it but I don't make the rules.

[Veritas]

60% needs to be funded through some type of tax with the remaining through philanthropy and private investment..

Not sure what else could possibly be done with CII. It’s lasted 50years, which is slightly less than that old architectural gem The Forum. I guess they could gut out the middle and make a fantastic air museum.. the current one is too far off the beaten trail, under marketed, too small, and unknown.

http://www.historicpreservationalliance.com/WichitaHPA/the_forum.html

Wonder how many were in angst over the demise of The Forum

[Veritas]

Not sure I'm sold on the $330 million price tag (12 acres/29% of project) for "Green Space" (however the renderings show a huge yellow "SHOX" landmark that looks kinda cool), but it could turn into a homeless haven... so some people would be happy.

Tulsa’s green space cost $465 M . Not sure we’d be getting the bang for the buck by spending $349m

https://www.gatheringplace.org/

[shoxlax]

If BPS would have anchored WW, and if the steering committee in charge of the IBA location decision a couple years later would have chosen the site option right across Main St from WW, we would probably not even be having this conversation. Everything south of Waterman and the Hyatt would be in awesome shape. Instead, we'd just be talking about the CII vs new performing arts and convention conundrum, as opposed to the full redevelopment of the entire SW 1/4 of downtown proper currently at hand.

Plans laid early, grow to reality later, or some such wise man quote that's not coming to me right now.

I mean this in all sincerity: how do you know so much about all of these things? You have either worked in public policy locally or are a urban development junkie. Either way, I’m impressed by the depth of your opinions.