Should KU & KSU join the MVC?

[vtshocker]

move it to a kstate message board site

[MoValley John]

And I never said that Kansas is a more attractive BCS FOOTBALL school than Kansas State. They are pretty much equals.

I have said that Kansas, because of basketball, is a national brand, Kansas State is not.

I have said that Kansas has a larger budget than Kansas State, they do.

I have said that Kansas fans go much deeper beyond the state line of Kansas tha do the fans of Kansas State, that is also true.

Nothing I have said when comparing Kansas to Kansas State is not true.

I have also mentioned some of the criteria that BCS conferences are looking for, that is, generating more money in TV contracts. I even posted the Top 10 viewed games from last year.

This is all true. That said, I have opined on what I think other intangibles are. There is nothing wrong with that.

When you look at fans opinions around the country, Kansas is in a much better position than Kansas State, it's not even close. When you look at the Texas site, when you look at the USC site, when you look at the Florida site, when the fans of those teams are opining on conference realignment, and they are, all of them desire Kansas much more than they want Kansas State. Nobody really cares about the Kansas footprint, either, they simply see that Kansas can deliver many more viewers, nationally and that delivers more money to the conference. These are simply the opinions of fans, but collectively, that should carry a lot of weight.

Neither Kansas nor Kansas State is going to deliver a large football audience, but conference contracts also include basketball and Kansas can fill that void, Kansas State, can't. Both of them have potential to grow their fanbase, I asked if Kansas State could grow their's to need a 65,000 seat stadium and you balked. I venture to say that with some success, some commitment to the program, Kansas could easily surpass that, but that is just my opinion.

[shockyhawky]

I think this thread is MVJ's personal blog.

[MoValley John]

I think this thread is MVJ's personal blog.

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

I haven't had this much fun since Valley Talk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

[MoValley John]

Keeping my blog alive, I thought I'd post a couple of interesting articles, one a Missouri perspective opining that the real mistake in the formation of the Big XII was all of the votes against Tom Osborne and Nebraska.

http://www.republican-times.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=27722&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

The second is an article regarding the survival of the Big XII even if Texas and Oklahoma leaves.

http://outkickthecoverage.com/big-12-television-contract-likely-to-protect-league.php

That's why this is a fact you can take to the bank: ESPN and Fox aren't going to reduce the amount they are paying the Big 12 for television rights even if the remaining Big 12 is a shell of its current state. (Fox and ESPN could also elect to pay a substantial settlement sum up front to these five remaining schools as well. Likely that sum would be in the neighborhood of $400 million or more. But I think it's much more likely that the networks would continue to pay the rights fees and carry the games).

As it turns out, it is possible that even with those losses, the netyworks are still stuck with the Big XII. I find it hard to believe that it could make a go with no maquee football teams, but maybe it could. While the Big XII surviving this is hard for me to fathom, I have also been under the opinion that the genesis of the Longhorn Network was an attempt by ESPN to keep the league in check. In reality, ESPN paid way too much for the LHN from the very inception, the numbers were out of line, ESPN assumed all the risk and there really was little way for them to recoup their investment. ESPN had to know this when they negotiated the deal. In hindsight, the only real reason ESPN put this deal together was to keep the Longhorns in the Big XII and block Fox from picking up market share. Neither Fox nor ESPN will give up market share in the lucrative college football market. In the end, maybe, just maybe, what everyone thinks will be the downfall of the Big XII, might just be fans thinking too much about Texas, Oklahoma and the other powers. Maybe the greed of ESPN and Fox has guaranteed the survival of the Big XII. Kansas State fans can take some solice in that.

[shockyhawky]

I think this thread is MVJ's personal blog.

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

I haven't had this much fun since Valley Talk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol:

I've got to learn not to bite on worms that are shaped like hooks.

I strongly suspect the Big 12 will survive in some form. Either the Pac ? is keeping their cards real close to the vest, or they don't want to expand any more. Even if they do expand, would Texas go for equal sharing of revenue and give up their network, or the Pac bow to TX as the Big 12 has done? Supposedly, BYU is ready to take aTm's spot.

[MoValley John]

I've got to learn not to bite on worms that are shaped like hooks.

I strongly suspect the Big 12 will survive in some form. Either the Pac ? is keeping their cards real close to the vest, or they don't want to expand any more. Even if they do expand, would Texas go for equal sharing of revenue and give up their network, or the Pac bow to TX as the Big 12 has done? Supposedly, BYU is ready to take aTm's spot.

A. I'm not fishing. Seriously.
B. I am giving my honest opinions and including some facts, as well as, articles I've pulled from the Internet.
C. Everyone should feel free to chime in, but only if having their opinion questioned doesn't get them too upset. Anyone can question mine, if you don't like mine, post yours, I'll read and consider. And maybe, my opinion could be changed, but it takes more than name calling.

As far as your post, I am thinking more and more that the Big XII will survive this last round as well. We all need to wait and see what Oklahoma does.

And for Texas, I think a lot of conferences want them badly. But at the same time, I think that they are very concerned about the negatives Texas brings to the table. Wherever Texas goes, you have to think that they will be relegated to only one vote in 12, 16 or whatever. Wherever Texas lands, they will no longer be able to have their way with the rules and format. It is already looking like Texas will not have their say on "which teams they get to bring." Conferences will want them, but they won't trust them. In the end, I think wherever they should go, the LHN will be reworked somehow.

[shockyhawky]

Random thoughts:
IF the Big 12 implodes, I think UT should go independent. They obviously "do not play well with others" and their ego has to be telling them they can "go it alone". Heck if the Catholics and Mormons can, surely the Texans can!

I wonder if OU getting to control the fate of the Big 12 is just to stroke their ego, so they will stay. Didn't UNL and now aTm leave mostly over hurt egos?

I'm not saying you will find purple powercat shirts in Mexico, but I think your perception of KSU just having regional "name recognition" is dated. In the past, I agree, no one outside of Kansas, save neighbors of alums, knew much about KSU. Snyder did a pretty good job of "building a brand", and Frank Martin has carried the torch much further in a short period of time. I travel a lot for work, and it has been my experience that people know much more about KSU athletics now, than they did late '90s, and definitely more than pre Snyder.

Curious on your thoughts of UNL in the Big 10. Obviously, in hindsight, it was smart. Every fan I have asked, or heard on the radio, was overwhelmingly in support of the move. But really, what matchups in the Big 10 excites Nebraska fan? Won't you miss OU? Won't your fan base miss the easy trips to Manhattan and Lawrence? I do have new found respect for UNL these past few days, as Osborn and Chancellor Perlman have been class acts during this latest turmoil for the Big 12.

[ABC]

UNL trips to Manhattan, Lawrence, Ames were easy.

The rest were not.

Lubbock? College Station?

I think they'll have a good rivalry with Iowa. That can't be worse than any "rival" they had in the Big 12.

Their rivalry with OU was only b/c the were the two best teams in the Big 8 for the last 30 years of the Big 8.

Having said that, it still just seems nuts that large state schools in the middle part of the country can't figure this out.

I simply can't imagine an in-confernence game for OU vs. Oregon State or KU and Georgetown.

It is kind of fun watching grown men (and a few women) who are the ADs, Presidents and coaches act like junior high kids.

[MoValley John]

Random thoughts:
IF the Big 12 implodes, I think UT should go independent. They obviously "do not play well with others" and their ego has to be telling them they can "go it alone". Heck if the Catholics and Mormons can, surely the Texans can!

I wonder if OU getting to control the fate of the Big 12 is just to stroke their ego, so they will stay. Didn't UNL and now aTm leave mostly over hurt egos?

I'm not saying you will find purple powercat shirts in Mexico, but I think your perception of KSU just having regional "name recognition" is dated. In the past, I agree, no one outside of Kansas, save neighbors of alums, knew much about KSU. Snyder did a pretty good job of "building a brand", and Frank Martin has carried the torch much further in a short period of time. I travel a lot for work, and it has been my experience that people know much more about KSU athletics now, than they did late '90s, and definitely more than pre Snyder.

Curious on your thoughts of UNL in the Big 10. Obviously, in hindsight, it was smart. Every fan I have asked, or heard on the radio, was overwhelmingly in support of the move. But really, what matchups in the Big 10 excites Nebraska fan? Won't you miss OU? Won't your fan base miss the easy trips to Manhattan and Lawrence? I do have new found respect for UNL these past few days, as Osborn and Chancellor Perlman have been class acts during this latest turmoil for the Big 12.

Long Post Alert!!!

I will go a little different direction on this reply.

I have a more tempered and objective opinion on what sent Nebraska to the Big 10. In reality, it had little to do with what Nebraska fans claim and it had less to do with what Texas fans think.

Nebraska left to protect the Nebraska brand. Period. It had little to do with the 11-1 votes against them during the Big XII meetings. It had absolutely nothing to do with not being able to beat Texas. These are the talking points both the Husker and Longhorn fans cite. In reality, Nebraska had a history of not being able to beat Oklahoma long before they couldn't beat Texas. And as for the 11-1 votes, they were disappointing, but Nebraska was willing to play with the hand they were dealt. It was always the belief of the athletic department that someday, those votes would begin to shift in their favor.

Conversely, Nebraska favored the revenue sharing formula. Nebraska benefitted from it. Nebraska also benefitted from the Big XII's position on third tier rights. Nebraska had a lot in common with Texas with regard to how the league favored the big boys. Now, what really sent Nebraska to the Big 10. Instability and the need to protect the brand.

I was working with the media group that producesd the Husker pay per view events during their Callahan era. I was privvy to a few things, not all, but privvy of the economics involved. The one thing that gave Nebraska confidence was their pay per view numbers. They were unreal. Nebraska going through a down period, turned to pay per view to get their games aired. Nebraska took the financial risk of backing the games, independent of Nebraska, I sold advertising. What at first was scary to Nebraska turned into a cash cow. Keep in mind, the only games that were pay per view were the dogs. The games against Ball State, Fresno, Western Illinois. You would think this would be a tough sell. Each game was in the neighborhood of $50. Not only did the games sell, but they sold across the country. Every cable provider and every satelite provider carried them, they were risk free and revenue to the cable company from each customer that purchased them.

Nebraska sold close to a million of these, every game, coast to coast. And with the success, Nebraska was actually able to quantify their following. You could see it on a map. Early on, it was estimated that Nebraska could make seven to possibly eight figures a year with their own network. It is also why, if you go back to the fallout, it was stated that Nebraska was way ahead of Texas in forming a network. Nebraska was ahead because they had sucked and went the pay per view route. But that suckkage was the genesis of a potentyial network.

Fast forward to last spring. Texas was secretly negotiating to bring themselves, Oklahoma, Texas Tech and Oklahoma State to the PAC. Nebraska got wind of it. Nebraska got scared. All the while, Missouri was making loud and public overatures about jumping to the Big 10. At this time, Nebraska contacted the Big 10 to guage interest. Colorado got wind of the Texas negotiations, and as the Buffalos never like the Big XII and wanted out, took the opportunity to jump ship. The PAC was receptive to Colorado because, although they wanted Texas and Oklahoma, they didn't want Tech or Okie State. Bringing in Colorado, in the minds of the PAC, would force out Tech. Meanwhile Texas continued to negotiate.

Missouri got louder and louder about hoping to the Big 10. Nebraska got more nervous. It finally became public that Nebraska and the Big 10 were talking. The conference turned to Nebraska and demanded a 10 year commitment to the league. No other team was being held to the deal but Nebraska. Pressure mounted against Nebraska and the fact of the matter was this, Nebraska needed to protect their brand, their worth and perceived value. If they committed for a decade and Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma and Missouri all left, they would be stuck in a crappy league for a decade. It would kill everything they worked at over the last 50 years.

Nebraska countered with an ultimatum back at Texas. Nebraska would commit to the league for the ten years and they would also forfeit their third tier rights to the league if Texas would follow suit. Texas wouldn't. At this point, Nebraska had no choice but to leave. There was no way they could afford to sign a 10 year document when nobody else had to. At that point, they called the Big 10 and laid out the situation.

That is really how it happened. No animosity, no leaving because they couldn't beat Texas, no leaving because the league unfairly always voted against them. They left because they couldn't risk the league falling apart and them being stuck.

As for the excitement of the Big 10. It is real. The Big 10 doesn't have a Texas or Oklahoma. But on the flipside, the Big 10 doesn't have a Baylor or Iowa State, either. Indiana is the closest. Yeah, they suck, but not too bad, plus it's a new brand of sucking. Ticket demand has gone through the roof. Every Nebraska road game is already sold out and Nebraska is adding 10,000 seats to accomodate the new demand at home. Plus, the TV contract and the Big 10 Network pays more than the Big XII, plus Nebraska's planned network combined. The Big 10 is also loaded in football. When you look at the schedule, there simply aren't any weeks off. You might not have a Texas, but the biggest dog you will play is either Purdue or Indiana. Not too bad.

I don't see Nebraska being any more successful in the Big 10 than they were in the Big XII, Kool Aide Husker fans do. They are nuts. I will say this, I have gone to Husker games for the tailgating, the looking at hot coeds and the beer. I am now excited to go see teams like Michigan, Penn State, Wisconsin and Ohio State. It is really goping to be cool!

[shockyhawky]

Wow! Just looked at that UNL football schedule. With the exception of Northwestern, it is a pretty exciting schedule. Will the first string even suit up for that game?

I agree with ABC, these people are acting like junior high kids. I just don't think it is fun to watch. They are screwing around with something that a great many people enjoy. The aTm - Texas game doesn't matter much to me, but many people mark that game on their calendar, assuming any of those rednecks can actually read a calendar. How can they just quit playing?

Here is an interesting take on the "super conferences":

http://blogmaverick.com/

[MoValley John]

I agree with some of what Cuban said and disagree with some as well. But before I delve into that, the 16 team "Super Conference" will only work if the 64 BCS teams included leave the NCAA for football. What many fail to mention is the huge antitrust suit that would follow. If these 64 schools format a championship that excludes all other FBS teams, you have just put yourself in a huge financial hole. The remaining FBS schools will sue and win. In fact, the payout will be so big, it could possibly reach the billions.

As for Cuban and scheduling patsies, I don't think that it's that big of an issue. If all 64 didn't schedule patsies, then a loss or two wouldn't ruin the season. As it ios now, if you droip a game, it's over.

As far as rivalries, they come and go. This realignment stuff will just shift rivalries. For instance, Nebraska's rival was always Oklahoma. When the Big XII was formed, the Big XII made Colorado the rival. Now that Nebraska has moved to the Big 10, Iowa is the rival. WHen Texas and aTm split next year, aTm will probably replace the lonbghorns with the Razorbacks. Fans get over iut sooner than you think. Wichita State used to be a rival of Tulsa, it went away. Bada bing bada boom. Life moves on.

The money will grow in those conferences more than Cuban admits. TV money would cap at a point, but these super conferences would actually strip most of the money out of all of the lesser conferences. If it becomes the SEC, the B1G, the PAC and the ACC, much of what money is available to the MWC, MAC and C-USA would be gone. I also think you draw a whole lot more ratings with a USC- Oklahoma game than you would a USC- Washington or a Oklahoma- Iowa State game. These supoer conference matchups will draw higher ratings and as a result, more money.

I do agree with him that some of the regional rivalries will be hard to replace. The RRR is huge. Not only is it a matchup of two "rivals" the outcome of that game is enormously important to fans in Texas, Oklahoma and in fact, many fans throughout the current Big XII. While there will be more big games as I mentioned earlier, these games still will be missed. It may sound contradictory to what I said earlier regarding rivals, but there is a subtle difference. Games like the annual Iowa- Iowa State game could go away. With less opportunities to play out of conference, these games could disappear and the loss of those games isn't a result of one of the teams leaving a shared conference. The RRR also predates the Big XII and is in jeopardy of going away.

I enjoyed reading Mark's opinion, I don't agree with all of it, but there is some merit in some of what he says. In fact, I love reading all of this stuff. I usually don't get caught up in stuff, but with this conference realignment, I'm like a middle-aged fat, divorced chick, eating my bon bons and watching my soap. I can't get enough oif it!
Kind of lame when I put it that way...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now, I'm about an hour until I'm off to the tailgate. I'll take some pictures this week to share with you guys some hot coeds, jello shots, beer and food!

[wufan]

More on the chicks rack please!

[shockyhawky]

Interesting tidbit. If Nebraska were one of the 10 teams in the Big 12, as it stands today, they would play 6 conference teams in the top 25, and the league would have 7 teams in. In the Big 10, they will only play 4... as it stands today.

[ABC]

Thanks for all of that info. Very interesting, and in hindsight, the response by Nebraska were logical. I'm not so sure about Colorado.

They have a lot of alums on the West Coast, but their alums don't seem to care.

A good friend of mine is a graduate of Colorado and laughs about how poorly their fan base travels to bowl games.

WSU had many more fans in NYC for the NIT than CU and no one was surprised.

Please explain "third tier" rights.