Shockers at Southern Illinois and Evansville

[flyingMoose]

Apparently, SIU's beleaguered women's coach, Missy Tiber, resigned today.

The article from Carbondale.

[1972Shocker]

Tiber was going to be gone at the end of the year in any case. I don't see her resignation as hurting SIU at all. Could even give them a little boost. Although the posters on the SIU say the assistant that is taking over is a Tiber Mini-me.

SIU basketball, both men's and women's, has really been put through the wringer over the past 6 years with the women probably worse then the men. I think the men are on the right track with the hiring of Barry Hinson.

If I was SIU I would take a look at former Drake coach Amy Stephens in their search to replace Tiber.

[1972Shocker]

My understanding is that Jaz Gordon is expected to be back from her concussion for the SIU game. You simply can not afford to lose to SIU if you plan on winning this conference. I don't think SIU can beat the Shocks unless the Shocks help them out. As long has the Shocks bring the proper focus and intensity to this game they should win it. OTOH, the same thing could be said last year's game at SIU but it was a 5 point game with 1:00 to go before the Shocks pulled away for a 78-68 win.

Evansville is this year's women's version of Missouri State. They struggled mightily going 2-9 in non-conference games and appeared to be heading towardes the bottom of the heap in the Valley. However, they seem to be reborn now that Valley play has started as they are off to a 4-1 start. On the one hand Evansville only defeated SIU (1-4) and Drake (0-6) at home by 6. On the the other hand they only lost to Creighton at home by 7. More impressively they swept a tough pair of road games beating a good Illinois State (4-2) team 71-57 and then nipping Indiana State (3-3) by 55-54 in Terre Haute. Not sure if Evansville is the real deal or not, but clearly the Shocks will need to play well to win that one on the road.

[flyingMoose]

If I was SIU I would take a look at former Drake coach Amy Stephens in their search to replace Tiber.

Different visions for the future of the program says Amy Stephens.

[1972Shocker]

Different visions for the future of the program says Amy Stephens.

Hard to know what that means. Might not mean anything. My best guess it means that Drake was wanting to go cheap on their WBB program and one way to do that was to eliminate a nine-year head coach with good, experienced assistants (i.e. Kirk Crawford) and replace them with a 30-year old with no head coaching experience.

If the support for a program is weak, win or lose, then why make the financial commitment to field a winner. Do it as cheap as you can just to maintain Title IX compliance and hope for the best. I don't know for sure that this is what happened at Drake but many times these decisions come down to pure economics.

She might find the same environment is in play at SIU whose coffers aren't exactly overflowing with cash.

I am a little concerned that the support for WBB at Wichita State hasn't picked up that much despite the much improved results under JA2 vs JA1 or maybe it has and I am just not seeing it. It just doesn't seem like there is much appetite for WBB among Shocker fans at the present time. Maybe winning a conference title for the 1st time and getting to the NCAA Tournament for the 1st time will change that. We have a very good shot at achieving one or both of these goals this year.

[The Mad Hatter]

The fan support may not be where we ultimately need it to be (and hopefully we can win the conference and really start building it), but the financial support from the school is there. We aren't trying to run a program on the cheap. Just note the thread in the men's board that pointed out that WSU spends nearly as much on women's basketball as Indiana State does on men's basketball.

[1972Shocker]

The fan support may not be where we ultimately need it to be (and hopefully we can win the conference and really start building it), but the financial support from the school is there. We aren't trying to run a program on the cheap. Just note the thread in the men's board that pointed out that WSU spends nearly as much on women's basketball as Indiana State does on men's basketball.

I don't believe I implied we (WSU) were trying to run a program on the cheap. I speculated that Drake was doing that and that perhaps Amy Stephens might find he same environment at SIU.

While I did not imply WSU was running its program on the cheap, the clear point is that if the support your program receives doesn't change significantly with the performance results then why continue to fund it at a high level if it really doesn't make any difference. I think Drake reached that point. SIU may be there also, don't know for sure. I think WSU is a long way from that point and we are in good shape as long as our men's program is flying high and making good money. But if that changes and if apathy among the fan base towards WBB continues long-term then maybe you have to start making some hard economic decisions. I don't expect WBB at Wichita State to ever be self-sustaining, but we certainly should be able to do better than selling 1,000 season tickets and having 500-600 fans show up on average.

I will say that the WBB fans the Shocks do have are very loyal and supportive. We just need a bigger waggon load.

[1972Shocker]

I wonder if selling a Super Shocker Punch Card might help attendance at certain sports. 10 general admissions for $40.00 bucks. May be used for any regular season home WBB, T&F, Tennis, Golf or Softball games, meets, etc.

[The Mad Hatter]

I don't believe I implied we (WSU) were trying to run a program on the cheap. I speculated that Drake was doing that and that perhaps Amy Stephens might find he same environment at SIU.

While I did not imply WSU was running its program on the cheap, the clear point is that if the support your program receives doesn't change significantly with the performance results then why continue to fund it at a high level if it really doesn't make any difference. I think Drake reached that point. SIU may be there also, don't know for sure. I think WSU is a long way from that point and we are in good shape as long as our men's program is flying high and making good money. But if that changes and if apathy among the fan base towards WBB continues long-term then maybe you have to start making some hard economic decisions. I don't expect WBB at Wichita State to ever be self-sustaining, but we certainly should be able to do better than selling 1,000 season tickets and having 500-600 fans show up on average.

I will say that the WBB fans the Shocks do have are very loyal and supportive. We just need a bigger waggon load.

I certainly wasn't accusing you of saying that we were being cheap. Rather I was pointing out that our athletic department, to this point, has not taken the route that others in the MVC have in that regard. I believe that WSU is committed to excellence in all our sports and would do what it takes to win, with or without huge attendance, but there is no question that, even with an athletic department that has this mindset, it becomes far, far easier to do this if that consistent fan/donor support exists. As you note, those that do support WBB do so very well, which helps a great deal, but greater numbers are needed for us to keep growing the program.

[oldtimewomen's hoopcoach]

I certainly wasn't accusing you of saying that we were being cheap. Rather I was pointing out that our athletic department, to this point, has not taken the route that others in the MVC have in that regard. I believe that WSU is committed to excellence in all our sports and would do what it takes to win, with or without huge attendance, but there is no question that, even with an athletic department that has this mindset, it becomes far, far easier to do this if that consistent fan/donor support exists. As you note, those that do support WBB do so very well, which helps a great deal, but greater numbers are needed for us to keep growing the program.

I have watched women's games all over the country for years and the Shox actually do pretty well on attendance. I watched a U.C. Davis vs. Sacramento State game on a drive through Sac. and there were less than 100 fans there. Stanford vs. Ore. State maybe 500. Stanford vs. Cal or UConn or Tennessee and it will be close to a sell out. When we were on the 10 game win streak last year we got a great crowd and then laid an egg and the crowd disappeared next outing. Just keep winning and the crowds will keep growing. Some of the negative press, push ups at half time get fans buzzing and some folks decide they don't wan't to support us. Win and they will come. Go to the NCAA's and it will really grow, but never to the men's level.

[1972Shocker]

Go to the NCAA's and it will really grow, but never to the men's level.

It would have been great if we could have made the NCAA Tournament two years ago when whe had a sub-regional in Wichita, but the timing just didn't work out. I would be interesting as heck to see what a women's sub-regional in Wichita would draw with the Shockers in the field. My guess is 7,500 to 8,000. Maybe too optimistic but I think we had about 4,500 for the games two years ago sans the Shockers. We might do better than that if we had either KU or KSU in the same field.

In any case, I certainly do not expect it to ever grow to the level of interest in the men's program. Just isn't going to happen. But perhaps a few year's of sustained success will allow it to grow to something similar to the support for the VB program. 2,000 to 2,500 fans per game would be outstanding. We have a long way to go. One concern with what is going on at Drake and SIU and perhaps some other Valley programs trying to do things on the cheap is that it degrades the value of Valley basketball as a viable entertainment product. Hard to make headway upstream unless everyone is willling and able to do their share of rowing.

[ShockTalk]

There's probably only so many fans, their time, and their money to go around. Women's basketball was starting to draw nice size crowds while Smith was here. Then two things happened. 1) Albright and 2) Lamb.

[1972Shocker]

There's probably only so many fans, their time, and their money to go around. Women's basketball was starting to draw nice size crowds while Smith was here. Then two things happened. 1) Albright and 2) Lamb.

No doubt the issue of time and money are significant to many Shocker fans. For some time is the issue. For others money is he issue. For some time and money are both issues. Some simply do not care for women's sports.

VB has the advantage of being the only fall spectator sport at WSU vying for Shocker fans time and money. Also their is no doubt Chris Lamb has built a program that is consistently successful at a high level. Furthermore, the top 3 or 4 teams in the Valley are generally very competitive against all but the very elite top 8 to 10 teams and on a given night they can be competitive against those teams.

The gap between the top of WBB and Valley teams is much wider. The Valley is a one-bid league in basketball and generally that bid ends being a 13 or 14 seed and usually a one and done participant in the NCAA Tournament. At times you almost wonder if you are better off just missing the NCAA Tournament and playing in the WNIT where you have a chance to win a few games.

Just for the heck of it I looked at the Volleyball programs history under Lambo to see how it progressed under his oversight:

Year, VB record, VB average attendance (WBB record, WBB attendance)

2000, 08-23, ?
2001, 11-16, 325
2002, 18-13, 376
2003, 21-10, 949
2004, 25-06, 1,116, NCAA
2005, 28-03, 1,998
2006, 25-07, 2,083
2007, 27-06, 2,550, NCAA
2008, 30-02, 3,177, NCAA (13-18, 1,283)
2009, 26-07, 2,892, NCAA (18-15, 1,987, WBI 1-1)
2010, 21-08, 2,501, NCAA (17-15, 1,758, NIT 0-1)
2011, 21-11, 2,527, NCAA (20-13, 1,855, NIT 1-1)
2012, 24-10, 2,899, NCAA (11-06, 1,517, To Date)

Note: In computing the WBB attendance I excluded the Schoolhouse Rocks games as those tend to distort the numbers. The paid attendance numbers for the women's basketball program actually don't look too bad. They must sell a bunch of corporate season tickets that don't get used I guess because the actual attendance seems to me to be no more than half those totals). It would be nice to convert those paid seats into used seats. 1,500 people can make a lot of noise in Koch Arena.

I attended my first VB match on 9/16/03 vs San Diego State - Sara Younes served up 14 aces in 4 sets - hook, line and sinker I was reeled in).

I began attending Shocker WBB games in the Darryl Smith era but first sprung for season tickets when JA1 was hired. I've stayed with it ever since although success has been tough to come by.

Financially, I believe I am supporting the men's basketball program when I support the VB and WBB program with season tickets, VB 101 dinner, Match Club and High Hoops memberships. I figure every dollar I kick into these programs is a dollar the MBB gets to keep instead going to subsidize these programs. I have certainly received more than my money's worth of entertainment value from the VB program. Maybe not so much from the WBB program but I'm hanging in there and we seem to be moving in the right direction.

[1972Shocker]

This is in response to a @oldtimewomen's hoopcoach post on the Drake thread. However, since it really has to do with the SIU and Evansville games I have posted my response here.

Just got word Kelsey sprained her ankle in practice, may miss this weekend. I don't know if we sweep without her, but I'm rooting for us!!!

Oh great! Injuries have not be kind to Shocker basketball this year. Hopefully, Jaz will be back for both games.

I think we should be able to handle SIU without Kelsey. Hard to say what impact the resignation of SIU's coach, Missy Tiber, will have on that young SIU team. One of the posters on SIU's board, who has usually been right on target with his info, said that most of the SIU team went to the SIU AD and gave him an ultimatum. Either Tiber goes or we will all be out of here at the end of the semester. With Tiber out of the picture you may catch a team free and loose and feeling much better about the world.

Evansille looks to be a much tougher proposition based on their Valley start. Hopefully, the Shocks will have enough in the tank to get through the weekend. Coming home to face Illinois State and Indiana State the following week may be their toughest test to date in the Valley.

[oldtimewomen's hoopcoach]

This is in response to a @oldtimewomen's hoopcoach post on the Drake thread. However, since it really has to do with the SIU and Evansville games I have posted my response here.



Oh great! Injuries have not be kind to Shocker basketball this year. Hopefully, Jaz will be back for both games.

I think we should be able to handle SIU without Kelsey. Hard to say what impact the resignation of SIU's coach, Missy Tiber, will have on that young SIU team. One of the posters on SIU's board, who has usually been right on target with his info, said that most of the SIU team went to the SIU AD and gave him an ultimatum. Either Tiber goes or we will all be out of here at the end of the semester. With Tiber out of the picture you may catch a team free and loose and feeling much better about the world.

Evansille looks to be a much tougher proposition based on their Valley start. Hopefully, the Shocks will have enough in the tank to get through the weekend. Coming home to face Illinois State and Indiana State the following week may be their toughest test to date in the Valley.

Sorry in advance for my attempt at old man wisdom, but back in the day coaches were more concerned about a knee injury, therefore we just laced up our "Chuck Taylor high top Converse sneeks" if we turned an ankle, we could tape and play. Now all players wear braces and/or are taped and we hear about high ankle sprains, knees blown out, etc. Hopefully Kelsey's is just the old fashioned swell and purple on the ankle, tape, stretch after 4-5 minutes you don't notice it and play. Don't know about Jaz, she needs to get back now.