AVCA Poll - 28 Sept. 2009

[The Mad Hatter]

Shocker drop, but manage to stay in the top 25 at #25.

http://www.avca.org/divisions/division-one-women/9-28-09/

[SpanglerFan316]

I am surprised.

[flyingMoose]

About what I expected. But then I was not on record as such. :)

[1972Shocker]

Count me as surprised also, although losing to a good MSU squad on the road is not a horrible loss. Nevertheless, we have probably used up all of our :oops: if we are to stay in the Top 25 and even if we don't have any additional stumbles the perception of the quality of teams in the MVC could make holding onto a Top 25 ranking tough.

More important than our ranking right now is getting the team re-focused and moving in the right direction again, and I think Lambo and the Ladies will get that done.

No better place to start then at Creighton this Friday!

:goshocks:

[SpanglerFan316]

Do you ever wonder if Melissa Stokes is a better "tactical coach" than Chris Lamb? I remember how WSU swept MSU at MSU and then, a few days later, MSU beat us in 5 at the MVC tourney last year?

This year, WSU clearly has more talent than MSU but they just beat us.

[1972Shocker]

I think Melissa Stokes is a fine Coach. Whether or not she is tactically superior to Lambo I couldn't say, but I very much doubt it. Lambo's overall record pretty much speaks for itself.

Not sure I buy that we are "clearly" more talented than MSU. They have a lot of very good athletes on their squad. They are a pretty physical team with good size and they clearly are not intimidated by the Shocks. Until the Shocks prove otherwise I would say that at this point MSU is the more talented team (although I would not use the term "clearly' one way or the other between these two teams).

I think Lambo will challenge his players this week and I think they will respond positively. Hopefully, that is not just wishful thinking on my part.

[The Mad Hatter]

Do you ever wonder if Melissa Stokes is a better "tactical coach" than Chris Lamb? I remember how WSU swept MSU at MSU and then, a few days later, MSU beat us in 5 at the MVC tourney last year?

This year, WSU clearly has more talent than MSU but they just beat us.

MSU has given WSU trouble (although note that we have still dominated the series in recent years) not because of tactics, but because, despite your claim, MSU is one of the few Valley teams that can match our talent level most years. Stokes recruits very well and always has some of the most powerful hitters in the league. MSU has struggled with consistency, but are talented and athletic enough to be very tough to beat when they are playing well. I would argue that the reason WSU has been better than MSU over the last 5 years, in spite of similar talent levels, is that Lamb is better tactically and is able to find ways to win even when his team is a little off, while Stokes has generally depended upon her team overpowering opponents and has lost to some mediocre teams because she couldn't adjust to an off night.

We made mistakes that allowed MSU to win the match, but can you tell me what tactical moves Stokes made or tactical mistakes Lamb made that caused you to attribute the loss to Stokes having tactical superiority? In my experience, when MSU has beaten us, it has been about them executing better than us, not about having better tactics than us, but feel free to give me specific examples of why you attribute it to tactics.

[1972Shocker]

When you have teams as evenly matched as WSU and MSU are talent-wise it is sometimes very difficult to discern how much comes down to X's and O's and how much to Janie's and Jo's.

The sense I got from LISTENING to the last Friday's match was that it wasn't so much a physical thing that cost the Shocks, but they just did not seem to have the mental toughness needed to overcome the Bears who just kept hammering away.

[1972Shocker]

I'm not sure we can say we have dominated the Bears in recent years. I think we are now 7-5 since 2005 with 7 of those matches going 5 sets (4 of the 5 Shocker loses were in 5 sets).

[dregn]

Do you ever wonder if Melissa Stokes is a better "tactical coach" than Chris Lamb? I remember how WSU swept MSU at MSU and then, a few days later, MSU beat us in 5 at the MVC tourney last year?

This year, WSU clearly has more talent than MSU but they just beat us.

No, I do not.

[SpanglerFan316]

If I read the reports correctly, MSU put two blockers on Emily, left one blocker on our MB and took their chances that some other Shocker would beat them. No other Shocker stepped up. If this is correct, then Melissa Stokes came up with a pretty good plan and Chris didn't have a good reply.

The Mad Hatter wrote:
"Stokes recruits very well and always has some of the most powerful hitters in the league."

Which MSU players hit harder than Sara Lungren? Smarter than Emily Stockman? How many MVC POYs has MSU had recently?

"MSU has given WSU trouble (although note that we have still dominated the series in recent years)"

OK, what is the record between MSU & WSU? 2008 MVC tourney? 2005 MVC tourney?

"We made mistakes that allowed MSU to win the match, but can you tell me what tactical moves Stokes made or tactical mistakes Lamb made that caused you to attribute the loss to Stokes having tactical superiority?"

MSU made it difficult for Emily by putting two blockers on her and making someone else beat them. Does this sound like tactics to you?

[The Mad Hatter]

If I read the reports correctly, MSU put two blockers on Emily, left one blocker on our MB and took their chances that some other Shocker would beat them. No other Shocker stepped up. If this is correct, then Melissa Stokes came up with a pretty good plan and Chris didn't have a good reply.

The Mad Hatter wrote:
"Stokes recruits very well and always has some of the most powerful hitters in the league."

Which MSU players hit harder than Sara Lungren? Smarter than Emily Stockman? How many MVC POYs has MSU had recently?

"MSU has given WSU trouble (although note that we have still dominated the series in recent years)"

OK, what is the record between MSU & WSU? 2008 MVC tourney? 2005 MVC tourney?

"We made mistakes that allowed MSU to win the match, but can you tell me what tactical moves Stokes made or tactical mistakes Lamb made that caused you to attribute the loss to Stokes having tactical superiority?"

MSU made it difficult for Emily by putting two blockers on her and making someone else beat them. Does this sound like tactics to you?

1. Well, the Bears currently have the leader in the Valley in hitting percentage and always have good depth of quality outside hitters and middle blockers. If I'm not mistaken, Panzau was POY for them a little while back. Sara and Emily have been outstanding players, but that doesn't mean that MSU hasn't had athleticism and talent to match WSU's throughout their roster. For next year, MSU has a top 100 recruit committed, while WSU does not (I say this only because it demonstrates that Stokes is a good recruiter and brings in good talent to MSU).

2. Including the loss on Friday, WSU holds a 10-5 record over MSU since 2004. Yes, those two MVC tournament loses hurt, but I think that the fact that Lamb has won 2/3 of the matches between the two teams should say plenty about how the coaches stack up.

3. Are you really telling me that the brilliant tactical move you are attributing to Stokes is putting a double block on the reigning POY? Who possibly could have thought of focusing on the opposition's best player? Don't let word of this strategy get out or else other coaches may use it too!

What's worse is that the strategy didn't even work and wasn't why MSU won! In spite of facing a double block, Stockman put up 27 kills and hit .318. The problem is that our middles did nothing while facing solo blocks.

But is that a tactical problem for Lamb? NO! Tactically, having one-on-one opportunities for our middles is exactly what we wanted. The double team did nothing to stop Stockman and everyone else had one-on-one looks, which is precisely what a coach wants. The problem is that we failed to put away our opportunities. If a team cannot execute when presented with the ideal attacking situation, no tactics in the world will save you. Did you want Lamb to try to adjust to have our middles face a double block somehow?

As I said in my first post, we lost because of execution, not tactics.

[SpanglerFan316]

Mad: You wrote "As I said in my first post, we lost because of execution, not tactics." In some ways, I agree with you.

However, when you have 22 players on your roster and you can't find a good right-side hitter, something is wrong. When the MBs & setter that you have been praising in the press can't get kills, something is wrong.

I wasn't at the match. How well did Mary distribute the ball? How good were her sets to Sarah and Stephanie? Kim hit 0.750 but only played 3 sets and only got 4 TAs:
9 Wadsworth, Kim...... 3| 3 0 4 .750| 0| 0 1| 0| 0| 0 1 0| 0| 3.5
Why didn't Kim play more and why didn't MEH set her more? What about Katie?
17 Niggemeyer, Katie... 3| 7 2 12 .417| 0| 0 0| 0| 1| 0 0 0| 0| 7.0

It is tactics to adjust to the conditions of the match. MEH had 16 TAs, the same number as Kim and Katie together, but Mary hit negative.
5 Hooper,MaryElizabeth 5| 2 3 16 -.062| 58| 0 1| 0| 2| 0 5 0| 0| 4.5
We had 15 SEs to 1 SA. The girls know how to serve in if they are told to. This is tactics.

3. Are you really telling me that the brilliant tactical move you are attributing to Stokes is putting a double block on the reigning POY? Who possibly could have thought of focusing on the opposition's best player? Don't let word of this strategy get out or else other coaches may use it too!

What's worse is that the strategy didn't even work and wasn't why MSU won! In spite of facing a double block, Stockman put up 27 kills and hit .318. The problem is that our middles did nothing while facing solo blocks.

But is that a tactical problem for Lamb? NO! Tactically, having one-on-one opportunities for our middles is exactly what we wanted. The double team did nothing to stop Stockman and everyone else had one-on-one looks, which is precisely what a coach wants. The problem is that we failed to put away our opportunities. If a team cannot execute when presented with the ideal attacking situation, no tactics in the world will save you. Did you want Lamb to try to adjust to have our middles face a double block somehow?

We just have to disagree here. Just because Emily didn't have a bad night on the stat line doesn't mean Stokes' tactic didn't work; who won the match? Putting pressure on Emily makes Sarah's play much more important and puts pressure on her. Her line wasn't terrible.
21 McGee, Sarah........ 5| 10 3 41 .171| 0| 0 1| 0| 2| 0 3 0| 0| 11.5
Did you notice that WSU scored 79 points and MSU only scored 77 points? I guess we won. Right? The stats don't tell the whole story.

[WuDrWu]

We just have to disagree here. Just because Emily didn't have a bad night on the stat line doesn't mean Stokes' tactic didn't work; who won the match? Putting pressure on Emily makes Sarah's play much more important and puts pressure on her. Her line wasn't terrible.
21 McGee, Sarah........ 5| 10 3 41 .171| 0| 0 1| 0| 2| 0 3 0| 0| 11.5
Did you notice that WSU scored 79 points and MSU only scored 77 points? I guess we won. Right? The stats don't tell the whole story.

I don't understand your point. TMH said it was execution not strategy. A middle hitting .171 against solo blocks IS poor execution either by Sarah's hitting or MEH setting, period. That setup should be closer to .400+, easy.

I think you just proved TMH is right, even though he didn't need it.

[SpanglerFan316]

WuDrWu: I'm rather busy right now; I'll be brief. If a hitter is not performing to expectations, you either replace her with another player or you help her improve in the match. We have 22 players. "Tactics" includes adjusting to the performance of your players in the current match and having (or finding) options when a player is not performing.