Shox -v- Texas Southern In Game Thread

[Dan]

Why didn't Tyler Richardson play mop up minutes?

Injury?

Because this kid has a long way to go and Ben sMith needs all the court time possible

I would've like to have seen Tyler in there over Brown at the end.

[ISASO]

For sure. If EO would play defense, get 10 rebounds (4-5 offensive) and put them back in for baskets that's pushing 10 points every night. Of course you could say the same thing for Stutz, but I'd still like to see him as a key component of the structured offense. There was very little of that last night - a huge problem.

20 points and 20 boards combined from the two big guys every night? That's a great foundation upon which to build a great season.

[Maggie]

Admittedly don't recall Olajuwan's early days. IF EO ever gets a 10 footer and 1/4 of Dream's moves it won't be fair to let him play. Hatch went 0-5. He did get to the glass. He did pick up 6 assists somehow. He has to shoot well enough to be respected out there or he's a liability against better teams.

Olajuwon, as freshman, had limited playing time he was raw – he didn’t come into his own until his Sophomore and Junior years – and his development was rapid. It is also important to remember that Patrick Ewing was not known as an offensive force in college – Ewing was all about defense and didn’t develop his offensive game until the NBA. EO doesn’t have to be Olajuwon circa 1983 to be successful at this level.

Look, I was really impressed with the raw talent of EO but comparing him to some greatest centers to ever play the game is obviously a stretch. EO has a long way to go. Based on what little I saw last night all I want to see from EO at this point is solid defense and rebounding – points are a bonus. In short, my expectations have not changed for EO. However, I was just so excited to see a player in a WSU uniform with his size move like that and his ability to block or alter shots….well WSU has not had a player physically capable of doing that in many, many years.

If they can somehow get EO to a big man camp to work on his offensive game over the summer – I am confident he will improve. If he only masters a baseline fade – like X – he will be unstoppable. The kid will be a Karl Malone double-double lock.

I like your post in that "comparing him to some greatest centers to ever play the game is obviously a stretch...like X - he will be unstoppable. The kid will be a Karl Malone double-double lock."

As for as the X/Malone comment – I meant if he develops a go-to offensive move (like a fade or a hook) he will get a double-double in most games at the D-1 level – he is going to get his share junk baskets, dunks, and trips to the line. I am not implying that he is X or Malone. I only used the Malone example because the guy averaged 20 and 10 for years at the NBA level – his stat line was very predictable and if EO takes a few baby steps on offense - his line could easily be 10-12 pts/10 rebounds a game.

[NCAABound]

HCGM said after the game that he did what he did to beat Texas Southern and not to win the MVC Tournament.

I thought that was as interesting comment because I thought the same thing when he did his first line change. It seemed to me that he wanted to wear down TSU with our depth, and winning the first 10-15 minutes didn't matter, because they were going to be tired and frazzled (mentally if not physically) and we'd get to them at the end of the half, which is what happened.

Now, what made it interesting to me is I don't think Gregg gives 2 s**ts about beating TSU. I don't really think he cares too much about beating most MVC teams. He wants a team that can win in March and April and THAT'S what he is trying to build.

Those 2 thought processes seemed to collide last night, which intrigued me. Still does this morning.

Hopefully this team starts to gel sooner than later...or there might not be much of a March or April.

[1972Shocker]

TS wasn't going to let Stutz beat them. They were using an extra defender between Stutz and the ball to keep him from getting the ball and they were collapsing 2 or 3 guys on him when he got it.

I'm certain WSU's game plan was to go inside and they didn't react right away when TS's strategy was to prevent that at any cost. Once Stutz figured out to pass when he got the ball and when the 3's started falling - game over. Stutz had a bad stats night, but we still got something like 16 or 18 points out of the post position.

Murry at point isn't a bad option. The way Kyles was playing, he HAD to have a spot on the floor for a lot of minutes. DWill and JRags are the question marks, so taking their minutes makes sense.

For the Hatch detractors, you're criticizing a guy who had 6 assists? His shot wasn't falling, so he found open players when he got the ball. A lot of people would consider that adjusting to the game conditions and salvaging a good game when his shot wasn't falling. But when Hatch does it, some fans want him on the bench.

I'll say it again. Murry did fine playing PG. If you think Murry should be playing somewhere else, tell Marshall. He thought Murry did a fine job.

Rags telegraphs passes and needs to work on his handles a bit. He'll be fine, but this is his first year of D1 ball. He needs some time to adjust. I don't know what happened to DWill. I suspect he may be pressing due to the competition. He looked a lot better at the end of last season. I think he'll be fine if we give him some time. In the meantime, we just happen to have a 6'5" guy who's played PG from time to time in two previous seasons and knows the system and the players very well. Murry only had 3 assists, but if he would have had a TO, hs assist to TO ratio would have been 3:1. Since he didn't have a TO...

...I just don't see the problem with playing him at point right now. Kyles looks like a better 2 than Murry (in this game). The 2 of them together makes for a very tall, fast, and athletic back court. There might be quickness issues against UConn.

EO is much fun to watch. the game changes the moment he steps on the court. He's going to peg that noise meter more than a few times before his career at WSU is done. I don't think I've seen a player better at getting the crowd involved in a game since McDaniel was here.

:yes: :good:

[ShockTalk]

Having Murry/Kyles on the floor at the same time was indeed intriguing. However, it lead to some substitution combos I don't want to see again until they get up to speed with HCGM's system.

Rags and DWill did NOT look good together (inexperience). Add Ben to the mix and it gets worse. If you do a rotation type substitution, but try to have Murry/Kyles together as much as possible, someone (or two) is not going to get much time. I think Murry/DWill and Kyles/Ragland might be stronger combos (for two lines) with Murry sliding to the 3 at times.

I also don't want to see Aaron and EO in at the same time (no offensive threat).

When we play the stronger teams, it wouldn't surprise me to see Murry and Kyles getting 27-30 minutes each, at least for the first half of the season. Also, for JT and Garrett to get 20-25 minutes with Blair close to 20.

[1972Shocker]

I got tired of watching Galloway blow by Rags & DW time and time again.

The slow reaction to Danner setting up on the perimeter for 3's after dribble drives was not good.

Those were my biggest frustrations also, especially Galloway consistently blowing by Rags & D-Will.

Galloway did not appear to be a perimeter threat at all, yet we insisted on getting in his face on the perimeter. I kept waiting for Rags & DW to back off a little so the could react to Galloway's 1st step.

Galloway did hit one three, but they may be replacing the backboard on the North end today as a result.

D-Will shot the ball OK and he he can definitely motor, but 5 turnovers to 1 assist in 20 minutes will not earn him much playing time. He definitely seems to be pressing and trying to force the game.

Toure will be at point in Maui with DK at the 2. Rags will probably back up Toure as needed. How much D-Will gets to play will depend mostly on how Toure and Rags do.

Once we get back to our buy-in games D-Will will get a another chance.

[wufan]

Admittedly don't recall Olajuwan's early days. IF EO ever gets a 10 footer and 1/4 of Dream's moves it won't be fair to let him play. Hatch went 0-5. He did get to the glass. He did pick up 6 assists somehow. He has to shoot well enough to be respected out there or he's a liability against better teams.

Olajuwon, as freshman, had limited playing time he was raw – he didn’t come into his own until his Sophomore and Junior years – and his development was rapid. It is also important to remember that Patrick Ewing was not known as an offensive force in college – Ewing was all about defense and didn’t develop his offensive game until the NBA. EO doesn’t have to be Olajuwon circa 1983 to be successful at this level.

Look, I was really impressed with the raw talent of EO but comparing him to some greatest centers to ever play the game is obviously a stretch. EO has a long way to go. Based on what little I saw last night all I want to see from EO at this point is solid defense and rebounding – points are a bonus. In short, my expectations have not changed for EO. However, I was just so excited to see a player in a WSU uniform with his size move like that and his ability to block or alter shots….well WSU has not had a player physically capable of doing that in many, many years.

If they can somehow get EO to a big man camp to work on his offensive game over the summer – I am confident he will improve. If he only masters a baseline fade – like X – he will be unstoppable. The kid will be a Karl Malone double-double lock.

I like your post in that "comparing him to some greatest centers to ever play the game is obviously a stretch...like X - he will be unstoppable. The kid will be a Karl Malone double-double lock."

As for as the X/Malone comment – I meant if he develops a go-to offensive move (like a fade or a hook) he will get a double-double in most games at the D-1 level – he is going to get his share junk baskets, dunks, and trips to the line. I am not implying that he is X or Malone. I only used the Malone example because the guy averaged 20 and 10 for years at the NBA level – his stat line was very predictable and if EO takes a few baby steps on offense - his line could easily be 10-12 pts/10 rebounds a game.

I know what you meant, and you were right on! I just found it ironic. We all know he is no where near NBA ready, but you can watch him and see that if he just does this or just does that...WOW! Watching EO is kinda like watching Kyles the last two years. Everyone in the gym knows David can take over except David. Last night David figured it out. Hopefully he won't forget! Someday soon EO is going to figure it out too. That will be a glorious moment for all in Shocker Nation!!!

[ShockTalk]

I got tired of watching Galloway blow by Rags & DW time and time again.

The slow reaction to Danner setting up on the perimeter for 3's after dribble drives was not good.

Those were my biggest frustrations also, especially Galloway consistently blowing by Rags & D-Will.

Galloway did not appear to be a perimeter threat at all, yet we insisted on getting in his face on the perimeter. I kept waiting for Rags & DW to back off a little so the could react to Galloway's 1st step.

Galloway did hit one three, but they may be replacing the backboard on the North end today as a result.

Don't ya have to call that shot? :lol:

[ShockerKhan]

The thing I liked about starting TM and DK is that they can handle the big guards that Tx So started.
I mentioned to the guy next to me while they were warming up that they all looked like they were 6'5" to 6'8".
Then when the starters were announced I understood the TM DK combo starting. One other point is it sounds like
Dwill and Rags have been struggling with turnovers in practice and HCGM will not tolerate stupid/unforced turnovers.

[pogo]

Someone explain to me what is gained by the PG throwing the ball to the SG on the right wing as he crosses mid court and then the PG moves towards the SG and takes a very short return pass (or even a handoff)from the SG. Is this designed to allow the offense to set itself like last year when the PG took FOREVER to cross the mid court line which was to allow the offense to get set. I thought the Shox looked really really good when they pushed the ball upcourt. The kids from texas southern as quick as they were in the most part had a hard time getting back in time.

[ShockTalk]

Someone explain to me what is gained by the PG throwing the ball to the SG on the right wing as he crosses mid court and then the PG moves towards the SG and takes a very short return pass (or even a handoff)from the SG. Is this designed to allow the offense to set itself like last year when the PG took FOREVER to cross the mid court line which was to allow the offense to get set. I thought the Shox looked really really good when they pushed the ball upcourt. The kids from texas southern as quick as they were in the most part had a hard time getting back in time.

Thanks for asking, as told my wife last night I should ask this same question. Anyone have a good answer?

[SubGod22]

It's just to allow the offense to set itself. It looks pointless but I believe the timing of everything is based off of the handoff.

[HockeyShock]

My observations from last night:

Ball control, people. Passes need to be crisper, reverses need to be faster, handling needs to be better in the face of pressure.

Just like last year, they're going to throw zone at us until we prove that we can beat it, so get that ball moving and find the open guy.

Newman game: Stutz kept the ball high. TS game: Stutz kept putting the ball on the floor. Coincidence? I think not.

David Kyles: Now keep this up over the next 30-something games, please. I think this is the first time we truly saw his upside without being mitigated by dumb mistakes. I think 20 years is the statute of limitations for nicknames, so I propose we start calling him "Showtime."

Toure Murry: I really REALLY liked him at the point. I see no reason to start anyone else there until either Ragland or Williams match his control of the game. He needed to make decisions on passes faster a couple of times, but he was all business out there. Plus, we got to see the return of Big Shot Toure at the end of the first half. Missed him last year.

Ehimen Orukpe: True story - right when he went in I thought to myself, "Okay, if this guy is going to be the difference-maker we all think he'll be, then he needs to show something now. He can't wilt now or nobody will take him seriously." Five seconds later - KABOOM!! and I thought, "Yeah, this is going to be fun." I'm particularly impressed at this early stage that he's picking his spots. He's not going up to try and block every shot and getting in foul trouble. He knows that if it's a miss he'll get the rebound so he's playing the percentages. Smart.

J.T. Durley: For those of you worried about J.T.'s mindset since he's not starting, I give you the first charge taken this season.

Aaron Ellis: I realize Aaron's shot is the long 2, and as such is rarely used in modern college basketball, but it's such a pretty shot.

Joe Ragland: A quiet, but respectable stat line, as has been pointed out by others on this board. Needs to put more mustard on the passes though.

Derek Brown: Clearly not used to being in that physical of a game. By the way, his nickname (at least in Sec 122, Row 30) is 'Tater.'

I think UConn will be a handful, but we're deep enough that SOMEBODY is going to be feeling it on any given night, and we're big enough that we won't be run roughshod over (although we allowed way too many drives last night) on defense. And even with all the problems, we kept it between 15-25 points ahead for most of the second half. San Diego State will almost certainly be ranked when we show up there, so it's good we have a few more weeks to gel before we make the trip.

:clap: :wsu_posters: :yahoo: :clap:

[DCShockerFan05]

I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what you're talking about, but I suspect it could be some method to diagnose the defense being used? dunno.