2010-11 SCHEDULE IS OUT

[Aargh]

ShockTalk, as I understand your earlier post about Butler's schedule, they played more road games than WSU and they played cupcakes at home.

Another difference for Butler is that they seem to be close (geographically) to a lot of a schools that were (more or less) equal to them, so they had more games available that didn't require travel.

Butler took advantage of the ability to play home-and-homes against some decent Valley teams in their OOC schedule.

[The Mad Hatter]

Pretend you are the coach of a decent college basketball program - say RPI 150 or better. I'm giving some leeway to the word "decent" to match the fans expectations of who WSU should be playing.

You get a phone call: "Hello, this is Gregg Marshall with Wichita State and we'd like to schedule some basketball games with you. We're really flexible and can do some things to make this work that you might not expect."

You respond, "Hey, Gregg, it's great to hear from you. Let me call you back just as soon as I figure out what it would take to make thjis happen. Playing you guys sounds great. I'd really love to get a series going."

You consider that Marshall is the guy who made Winthrop into a team that knocked off some "name" schools. You also consider that for name recognition as a good opponent, a bad BCS school has a lot more "name" appeal than WSU. You check out WSU's prospects and see that WSU is a likely top-40 team this year.

If you're the coach of an RPI 70 - 150 program, WSU is likely to kick your butt. You need a winning record to keep your job. If you're the coach of an RPI 70 - 40 team, you're a possible bubble team, you're looking for "name" wins and WSU is a likely loss - especially if you play in Wichita. If you're the coach of an RPI 40 or better team, the last thing you want to do is go on the road to play WSU.

Do you return the phone call? Or do you go to your caller ID, check the number Marshall called from and block it?

So how did Butler gets all their games prior to becoming a top tier program? They were still a very good team and most likely to win at home.

I can't say for certain, but some schools might have wanted to play in Indianapolis for recruiting purposes. Another factor might be that the history of Hinkle Fieldhouse makes it an attractive venue for ESPN, so it is easier to get home games on tv (which can attract better opponents for the exposure - I know their Xavier game was on tv). These are just guesses off the top of my head. Unfortunately, the best we can do is speculate because we aren't privy to the details of how schedules get formed, just the final results.

EDIT: Over a 3 year period (2007-2008 through 2009-2010), Butler played Ohio State three times. Two of those games were at Butler, one at Ohio State. Does anyone think that KU would play WSU three times in three years and have two of those games in Wichita? Does anyone think that it is WSU's fault that it can't get the deal with in-state schools that Butler got with theirs?

[SubGod22]

I'll weigh in on this discussion.

First, I don't totally buy the "nobody will play us" theory. We are probably hurt by our location and the lack of number of other quality conference teams that play in our region (if it's not Big XII or C-USA, there's additional travel to consider).

Secondly, I seem to remember last year when many of us were complaining about the schedule, Mike K. asked HCGM about the schedule after a game and he said he liked that schedule.

My point? I looked at Butler's schedule over the last 7 years. They were a .500 team during the first two years, a WSU level another 2/3 years, and a top tier program 2 other years. So they had experienced a variety of levels as a mid major program. I'm sure the numbers aren't perfect, but they have had in their non-con schedule during that time 43 home games, 32 road, and 8 neutral/tourney. 10 of their road games included MVC conference teams (all were home /home arrangements), 14 BCS teams (most with return home games), a home game with Gonzaga, and home/home with Xavier and UAB. Most of their other games were made up of teams like Ball St, Miami OH, Ohio, Davidson, Richmond, Tulane, and S. Dakota St, all home/home arrangements. 57% of their home/road games were at home and, in only one year, did WSU's schedule match up to their schedule.

On the other hand, WSU played 48 home games, 22 road, and 10 neutral/tourney. That's 69% of home/road games at home. Where Butler had only 11 more home games than road, WSU had 26. Most all of these games, for both Butler and WSU, were low RPI games (cupcakes).

I believe Butler is applying the same approach that Gonzaga did. Go on the road, have fewer home games, be confident as a team and prove yourself. Now they are reaping the rewards. Also, this tougher schedule probably attracts better athletes.

Is this approach risky? Certainly! However, so is the other (WSU) approach. We found that out last year and, if things don't go just right, we'll find it out again this year.

While I am on record as saying I'd like us to go on the road a little more (even just subbing 1 cupcake for a road game would be good), there is an argument against using the Gonzaga/Butler model.

During the time periods that Gonzaga and Butler were building their reputations by playing non-con games on the road, their conferences were not nearly as competitive as the Valley. There were very few games on either of their conference schedules that either team were at all likely to lose, so they could afford to risk loses in the non-con knowing that their final record would still be impressive.

Not disagreeing, but I do feel a tougher non-con schedule will prepare a team better (than cupcakes) for a tougher conference schedule. We were not prepared to play lesser Valley teams on the road last year.

:good:

[AMaizNShocks]

pretty disapointed to spend so much money for season tickets and have to sit thru that non conference schedule. plus not to mention tulsa will probably be at IBA and i will have to pay even more money for it.

Tulsa IBA game is included in the season ticket package. But I pretty much agree with your point. CKA games in the non-con are absolutely horrendous. I don't think the continual price hike for season tickets has been justified.

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If it's so bad then I will GLADLY take tickets to any games that you have to complain about going to. If it is going to be "absolutely horrendous" for you then please give the tickets on to someone who would love nothing more than to be there.

Thats for both of you. I promise you I can get those tickets to people, like me, who would not complain one bit about the opponent. People who would love to go on to watch the shox live. So if it really is so bad you can go ahead and pm me, and I will take the tickets off your hands.

That's easy to say when they're free to you. It's also easy to sit on the fence and ask for handouts from people who have a beef with the quality of schedule given the prices we pay for season tickets. If it's not a handout you seek, then there are still tickets available. Either way, I wouldn't get down on the people who are a little critical of the schedule considering we're the ones paying the big bucks.

And, we go into this deal sight unseen hoping for the best. Most don't mind paying the money, we just want to see quality opponents. Non-season ticket holders can pick and choose what they want to pay to see.

[ShockTalk]

ShockTalk, as I understand your earlier post about Butler's schedule, they played more road games than WSU and they played cupcakes at home.

Another difference for Butler is that they seem to be close (geographically) to a lot of a schools that were (more or less) equal to them, so they had more games available that didn't require travel.

Butler took advantage of the ability to play home-and-homes against some decent Valley teams in their OOC schedule.

Point 1: No. Only the 11 more home games than road games were cupcakes. WSU had 26 of these games! While WSU was buying cupcake games, Butler was going for more stronger mid major home/ home games and, somehow, home/home BCS games.

Point 2: Yes, as I said. WSU has location as a negative and needs to find a way to counter the distance issue.

Point 3: Note, that except for location, we were no different than most of the Valley teams they were playing, but we were not one of those teams that got a home/home.

[SubGod22]

pretty disapointed to spend so much money for season tickets and have to sit thru that non conference schedule. plus not to mention tulsa will probably be at IBA and i will have to pay even more money for it.

Tulsa IBA game is included in the season ticket package. But I pretty much agree with your point. CKA games in the non-con are absolutely horrendous. I don't think the continual price hike for season tickets has been justified.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's so bad then I will GLADLY take tickets to any games that you have to complain about going to. If it is going to be "absolutely horrendous" for you then please give the tickets on to someone who would love nothing more than to be there.

Thats for both of you. I promise you I can get those tickets to people, like me, who would not complain one bit about the opponent. People who would love to go on to watch the shox live. So if it really is so bad you can go ahead and pm me, and I will take the tickets off your hands.

That's easy to say when they're free to you. It's also easy to sit on the fence and ask for handouts from people who have a beef with the quality of schedule given the prices we pay for season tickets. If it's not a handout you seek, then there are still tickets available. Either way, I wouldn't get down on the people who are a little critical of the schedule considering we're the ones paying the big bucks.

And, we go into this deal sight unseen hoping for the best. Most don't mind paying the money, we just want to see quality opponents. Non-season ticket holders can pick and choose what they want to pay to see.

:yes:

[SB Shock]

If it's so bad then I will GLADLY take tickets to any games that you have to complain about going to. If it is going to be "absolutely horrendous" for you then please give the tickets on to someone who would love nothing more than to be there.

Are you planning on paying for them? Face value is the price. If so how many tickets do you want for the games?

[ShockTalk]

Pretend you are the coach of a decent college basketball program - say RPI 150 or better. I'm giving some leeway to the word "decent" to match the fans expectations of who WSU should be playing.

You get a phone call: "Hello, this is Gregg Marshall with Wichita State and we'd like to schedule some basketball games with you. We're really flexible and can do some things to make this work that you might not expect."

You respond, "Hey, Gregg, it's great to hear from you. Let me call you back just as soon as I figure out what it would take to make thjis happen. Playing you guys sounds great. I'd really love to get a series going."

You consider that Marshall is the guy who made Winthrop into a team that knocked off some "name" schools. You also consider that for name recognition as a good opponent, a bad BCS school has a lot more "name" appeal than WSU. You check out WSU's prospects and see that WSU is a likely top-40 team this year.

If you're the coach of an RPI 70 - 150 program, WSU is likely to kick your butt. You need a winning record to keep your job. If you're the coach of an RPI 70 - 40 team, you're a possible bubble team, you're looking for "name" wins and WSU is a likely loss - especially if you play in Wichita. If you're the coach of an RPI 40 or better team, the last thing you want to do is go on the road to play WSU.

Do you return the phone call? Or do you go to your caller ID, check the number Marshall called from and block it?

So how did Butler gets all their games prior to becoming a top tier program? They were still a very good team and most likely to win at home.

I can't say for certain, but some schools might have wanted to play in Indianapolis for recruiting purposes. Another factor might be that the history of Hinkle Fieldhouse makes it an attractive venue for ESPN, so it is easier to get home games on tv (which can attract better opponents for the exposure - I know their Xavier game was on tv). These are just guesses off the top of my head. Unfortunately, the best we can do is speculate because we aren't privy to the details of how schedules get formed, just the final results.

EDIT: Over a 3 year period (2007-2008 through 2009-2010), Butler played Ohio State three times. Two of those games were at Butler, one at Ohio State. Does anyone think that KU would play WSU three times in three years and have two of those games in Wichita? Does anyone think that it is WSU's fault that it can't get the deal with in-state schools that Butler got with theirs?

All the games you mention were after Butler became a top tier team. I said prior to being a top tier school. If WSU can reach the heights that Butler has, we could have a TV game at WSU with Xavier and the likes.

But you are right about the in-state problem. With so many other states where these games do exist, required or not, the Kansas legislature should do something about it. Until then, it's another hurdle. By the way, what does Butler playing Ohio St have to do with this?

[ShockTalk]

If it's so bad then I will GLADLY take tickets to any games that you have to complain about going to. If it is going to be "absolutely horrendous" for you then please give the tickets on to someone who would love nothing more than to be there.

Are you planning on paying for them? Face value is the price. If so how many tickets do you want for the games?

You can also pony up for a % of my SASO for those games as well. Until that point, your silence is appreciated.

[tropicalshox]

Marshall said over a year ago that he wants to play 4 guarantee games. I don't remember the why except that it's better than being the one that gets paid to take a probable beating. My guess is that's it's also a $$ matter. IMO even last year's schedule was good enough to get an NCAA bid. We had no business losing some of those late Valley games on the road if we were a dancing team.

I would of liked one more good team on this year's schedule, even on the road as a one and done if necessary. However, once again although not much room for error, the schedule is good enough for a bid if we deserve it.

Not having ESPNU, I don't see some of the better away games that are on national TV. Most of the games I'm able to see are on Shockervision. I too am tired of the pushovers. If we must have guarantee games we should put out even more money to get better competition.

[Veritas]

Not sure I understand the rationale for scheduling such a weak OoC home schedule. I don't buy into the argument that no one of decent to strong RPI will play in Wichita. This begs the question to schedule 1:2 against tough competition and bring some good teams to Koch or IBA.

We waited a long time for this schedule and frankly speaking the home OoC leaves a lot to be desired.

Why do you think you know who would or would not play us? Why would you assume that the coaches are turning down quality teams that are willing to play in Wichita? Wouldn't the amount of time it took to release the schedule suggest that the coaches didn't see these cupcakes as their first choice and were trying to hold out for better competition?

Didn't write "who", just said a better team with a stronger RPI. Can't convince me if we change our thinking for 1:2 or 2:3 that we can't get better competition into CKA. It's what the team and fans deserve.
Additionally, I don't believe in trying to "hold out" for better competition. I'm of the mindset that one aggressively goes out and secures a better schedule.
Looks to me like a poor showing by the Athletic Department Staff in charge of scheduling. One can't throw this on HCGM either. The guy has enough on his plate without getting into the weeds in putting together a schedule. That's what ADES pays his staff to accomplish. Disappointing.

[SubGod22]

Maybe the schedule is good enough to get a bid. But as a 12 seed? The thinking needs to develop into how do we best set us up for success in the tournament. Not just getting in. If we lose to UCONN we're screwed. The schedule should never come down to one game. SDSU and Tulsa are fine games. Neither one is at Koch. Outside of that the toughest thing the schedule presents is me trying to stay awake during the rest of the home games.

[AMaizNShocks]

Outside of that the toughest thing the schedule presents is me trying to stay awake during the rest of the home games.

Haha! I'll pass you some "No Doze" or slip ya a Red Bull. Or, you could sit next to that stinky guy, that would keep you awake.

[ShockTalk]

Marshall said over a year ago that he wants to play 4 guarantee games. I don't remember the why except that it's better than being the one that gets paid to take a probable beating. My guess is that's it's also a $$ matter. IMO even last year's schedule was good enough to get an NCAA bid. We had no business losing some of those late Valley games on the road if we were a dancing team.

I would of liked one more good team on this year's schedule, even on the road as a one and done if necessary. However, once again although not much room for error, the schedule is good enough for a bid if we deserve it.

Not having ESPNU, I don't see some of the better away games that are on national TV. Most of the games I'm able to see are on Shockervision. I too am tired of the pushovers. If we must have guarantee games we should put out even more money to get a better competition.

:good:

If set up alternating, you can replace TWO cupcake games with two 75-150 RPI mid major home/home games and only lose ONE home game a year. If WSU is deserving of dancing, both of those games should be winable. Also, any mid major team in this range is not concerned about losing to a WSU as it would take their tournament championship (or an upset of us) to get in to the NCAA post-season anyway. I understand that you may not know how strong/weak one of these teams may be by the time you play them, but they could be no worse than what they're replacing and if stronger than expected, a bonus if we win and not so damaging if we lose. Had we done this last year and won the games, we would have been in the dance playing with fire instead of playing disheartened at home and losing in the NIT. Had we lost one of those games, we'd still be in the NIT and no worse off. Which do you think is a more recuitable senerio to a young athlete?

[WuDrWu]

I really doubt that HCGM and staff are just lazily sitting around and holding off on the releasing a poor schedule out of choice.

HCGM no doubt wants to get to the NCAA Tournamnet in the worst way. Personally, I'm concerned that if we don't starting making the dance on a regular basis going forward HCGM will start looking for other opportunities, especially if diffuculty in scheduling contributes to the difficulty in making the dance.

If it is mostly a matter of money then that needs to be addressed and is something the fans can actually influence. I'd be willing to kick in $100 or so per year to a Shocker MBB Scheduling Fund if that, in fact, would resolve or significantly help in scheduling decent opponents. If we could get 5,000 fans to kick in an average of $100 each per year that would generate $500,000 annually to use towards upgrading the schedule. The other and probably better option is to raise season ticket prices $50 per year to raise the extra $500,000 to use for scheduling. Maybe a combination of a voluntary fund and ticket prices increases would work.

If it is not a money issue then the question is what, if anything, can be done to resolve the scheduling issues or are do we just have to get used to BOHICA.

I like this idea. A put up or shut idea. Perhaps someone can suggest this to the AD.