A vote of confidence in the current staff.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Johnny's decision to come to WSU should offer a measure of peace to many of us. It would be very easy considering the recent (and not so recent) performance of our team to speculate that GG is in over his head. It appears that while many of us have entertained the idea, Johnny has not.

As I've mentioned before, a good measure of a coach is how much he is able to get out of what he has compared to what is perceived possible by the masses. So far the signs haven't been positive.

Another important (leading) indicator that fans can use to analyze a coaches grasp of his program is recruiting. So far Shocker fans (and national recruiting services) have been fairly happy with recruiting until just recently when players have, in my opinion, been thrown under the bus in order to preserve the idea that GG is sterling in his management skills. Instead of putting the responsibility on both parties some find it easiest to come to the illogical conclusion that it must just be another batch of stupid, lazy, untalented players. I even hear people still bring up "the mess Turdgeon left us in" :whistle: :roll: .

If Johnny would have chosen Drake over us I think it could have been the first domino in a very unstable future for GG. With Wichita being such an obviously superior choice on paper, a decision for Drake would have been a clear message as to the "state of the program". Of course, Johnny could still have strong reservations but just be banking on the baseball side of things... I won't allow myself to go there just yet.

So in conclusion, I think today was a VERY good day to be a Shocker, and should provide all of us (including me) some peace.

-that is... unless we lose to Evansville. Then I will be calling for the coaches head. ;-)


T


...8)

[Veritas]

I agree with most of what you have written, except of the speculation about HCGM being in over his head.
I think in today's instant gratification culture, many want a high level of success NOW, without giving regard to estabilishing an overall lasting successful program.
HCGM seems like an impatient man which is good to a certain degree but unfortunately is contagious and gets others including fans to be impatient as well.

I believe in hindsight he should have said something along the lines of "look our cupboards are bare. We're going to build a solid and dominating program by doing it the right way, and success will be guaranteed. Until then, I appreicate your constant inimitable support".

One thing that impressed me about Turgeon's program is that he improved each season - at least up to the Sweet 16 season. That is a measuring stick I'll use with HCGM as well. I want to see continued improvement to the point where we are dominating and battling for the conference championship year in and year out. I expect to see WSU playing for the conference championship at Marshall's 4 year mark.

Regardless, it is indeed exciting to see Mr. Coy coming to WSU and does show that the Shox are putting together the pieces necessary to continue an upward journey.
:wsu_posters:

[WuDrWu]

Cold,

In a round about sorta rubber room crazy you make some good points, allow me to expound for a moment.

You are watching the first 15 games of Gregg's 1st class. Ramon, Mantas and Aaron do not count. We needed bodies in NO time...we got what we got. I love the kids but MCDAA they are not nor were they ever. Was it suprising that we got some potential in 3 months and less? Sure. But those weren't the kids Gregg would have chosen.

Toure, Garrett, David, Reggie and Clevin. Those are on Gregg. They are into a 1/2 a season. That's all. Give them 2 years, watch them tear through the Valley and tell me what you think of recruiting. Until then, you have to take a step back....there are no Micheal Beasley's out there for us at least not today.

[Dan]

I may be off, but I believe Marshall has said on many occassions that he needs time to recruit the type of athletes needed to run his system. This recruiting started with the freshman class and now includes several transfers and a couple HS commits. He wants to win now as much as anyone and mabe overestimated the number of games his current team could win. It's difficult to make the statement "the cupboard is bare" when you have to go out and live with the guys you basically dismissed to the public by saying they're not good enough to play D1 ball. We've got another great crop coming in with Blair, Coy, Manigault and Hamilton. Next year we'll probably be middle of the pack - after that, look out.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Cold,

In a round about sorta rubber room crazy you make some good points, allow me to expound for a moment.

You are watching the first 15 games of Gregg's 1st class. Ramon, Mantas and Aaron do not count. We needed bodies in NO time...we got what we got. I love the kids but MCDAA they are not nor were they ever. Was it suprising that we got some potential in 3 months and less? Sure. But those weren't the kids Gregg would have chosen.

Toure, Garrett, David, Reggie and Clevin. Those are on Gregg. They are into a 1/2 a season. That's all. Give them 2 years, watch them tear through the Valley and tell me what you think of recruiting. Until then, you have to take a step back....there are no Micheal Beasley's out there for us at least not today.

I find several contradictions (to reality) in your post like: "those weren't the kids Gregg would have chosen". In fact, Gregg was quite elated when he signed those players as was much of SN. The talk about rushed recruiting as an excuse for poor performance surfaced much later last season when we did a complete 180.

Regardless, you know I love you, but you are too close to the program thus your incentive to conform publicly is strong. I am not fettered by those same chains. ;-)

It's important in a fan base to have those that are willing (and able) to stand up and complain. Without those countervailing forces there would never be correction. And believe me, there needs to be some correction. Anybody who believes that GG has performed flawlessly in his duties since arriving in the great Nation of Shock has rocks in his or her head. :)

Patience is a virtue but at some point a person should alert the captain that they see a possible iceberg on the horizon.


Now with that said...

Today is a happy day, Johnny Coy signed with the Shox and CB is back to posting on SN (well, that might not be a happy day for some :D :yahoo: :clap:)


T


...8)

[RoyalShock]

The idea that HCGM might be in over his head only makes sense if his Winthrop teams only had success within the Big South. But they went into the gyms of elite programs and gave them all they could handle.

They soundly defeated a Missouri State team that many thought were tournament worthy - on the road.

They effectively beat Tennessee in the '06 tournament. (Lofton took three steps in what was one of the most obvious travels I've ever seen before launching his game winner).

Then they won their 1st round game in '07 (was it vs. Notre Dame?).

But I agree with CB's idea that effective recruiting can be an indication of a coach with a good grasp of his situation. And it can cure a lot of ills.

The Doc is right. I've started to question Marshall's offensive system, but I've come to the conclusion that we do need to give his recruits - the first class "by design" - at least a full year to get it, then polish it, and be able to help incoming players do the same.

[C0|dB|00ded]

I may be off, but I believe Marshall has said on many occassions that he needs time to recruit the type of athletes needed to run his system. This recruiting started with the freshman class and now includes several transfers and a couple HS commits. He wants to win now as much as anyone and mabe overestimated the number of games his current team could win. It's difficult to make the statement "the cupboard is bare" when you have to go out and live with the guys you basically dismissed to the public by saying they're not good enough to play D1 ball. We've got another great crop coming in with Blair, Coy, Manigault and Hamilton. Next year we'll probably be middle of the pack - after that, look out.

As awesome as we thought this year's roster was, next year should be mind-blowing!!! Perhaps we will win a conference game before February!! :yahoo:

JUST KIDDING!

If we keep signing players like Manigault, Hamilton, and Coy, your crazy uncle could coach this team to 25 wins!

I'm personally sitting on pins and needles waiting for Blair to jump (literally) onto the scene. Of course, I said the EXACT same thing about Ananias Hawkins... I so want A.J. to succeed. :cry:


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SHOX!


T


...8)

[ShockTalk]

Cold - It appears that Ananias so needs to want to succeed.

[C0|dB|00ded]

The idea that HCGM might be in over his head only makes sense if his Winthrop teams only had success within the Big South. But they went into the gyms of elite programs and gave them all they could handle.

They soundly defeated a Missouri State team that many thought were tournament worthy - on the road.

They effectively beat Tennessee in the '06 tournament. (Lofton took three steps in what was one of the most obvious travels I've ever seen before launching his game winner).

Then they won their 1st round game in '07 (was it vs. Notre Dame?).

But I agree with CB's idea that effective recruiting can be an indication of a coach with a good grasp of his situation. And it can cure a lot of ills.

The Doc is right. I've started to question Marshall's offensive system, but I've come to the conclusion that we do need to give his recruits - the first class "by design" - at least a full year to get it, then polish it, and be able to help incoming players do the same.

I hate to be a Debby Downer but we were 9-4 at one point last year with a win over UAB and LSU and hardly any GG players. We even beat Bradley in their barn AFTER Matty went down. At that point we were 10-6.

To be honest, the best I have seen the Shox play in the Marshall Era was the game against LSU at home. We were extremely aggressive, we attacked the basket and intimidated a bunch of VERY big and athletic players. LSU wasn't that good last year but they would DESTROY us this year and I think we are a TON more athletic.

I agree Winthrop made some noise in the tournament. But let me play devil's advocate for a bit. GG's Winthrop team is the quintessential team that comes into the tournament FULL of confidence after an entire season of beating the hell out of their lowly conference membership. One year GG even went undefeated in conference play. That kind of ultra-success gives a ball club ultra-confidence. We all know that confidence equates to wins in college basketball. Look at ORU walking into Allen Fieldhouse and smacking KU in the mouth (when they were good). As far as Winthrop beating SWOMO.. When did SWOMO become a powerhouse? Hell, Bradley lost to a DIII team this year.

Yes, GG needs athletes to run his "system", but I think GG is not used to coaching against Valley coaches (when they can study his "system" effectively) who historically have been one step away from the top jobs in the nation. He isn't hammering the kind of schools anymore who have a couple hundred kids in the stands and a coach whose staff includes himself, his wife, and his son, the ballboy. This is a major step up and I made the mistake in believing that he was somehow superhuman and was going to come into Wichita and win immediately.

I personally thought GG would come into Wichita MUCH more prepared than the very green Turgeon. Obviously that wasn't the case. Turgeon had the tutelage to coach bigger-time basketball. He was just awaiting the opportunity to do so down in Florida. GG is from a very different background. He has lifted himself up by his own bootstraps and is cut more from the kind of cloth of a Randy Smithson than of a Mark Turgeon (don't read too far into what I just said). GG is real, he's hard, he's tough, and he's stubborn. Right now it's GG versus the Valley. I believe GG will win but the pain might not be over for a while...

Today is a GREAT DAY though and a sure sign that we may be temporarily beaten, but we are still not down!

If Johnny Coy has faith in GG, then CB does as well!! :yahoo:


T


...8)

[C0|dB|00ded]

Cold - It appears that Ananias so needs to want to succeed.

You don't want to go down the "motivation" or lack thereof road with me...

IT'S A GREAT DAY! JOHNNY COY IS A SHOCKER!!!

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


T


...8)

[ShockTalk]

I AGREE !!!!!!

:clap: :wsu_posters: :yahoo: :posterwsu:

[shocks02]

If we beat MSU tonight this will be the greatest day to be a shocker in a while.

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :goshocks: :goshocks: :) :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :clap: :clap:

[RoyalShock]

I think what we saw pre-MB concussion last year and so far this year is the difference between experience and young talent.

Having MB, PJ, PT and even Mekel last season was just enough to give the team some success and confidence. Losing MB and then Mantas just as he was coming around reversed the confidence trend to the point where getting MB back later in the year wasn't enough to right the ship.

I'm excited to see what happens as Marshall adds young talent (KJ and JC, with JH a likely redshirt, IMO) to experienced talent (CH, TM, JD, GS, AH and to an extent, GB). Add to that the depth provided by RC, GH, DK and hopefully, AE, I like the hue I'm seeing for next year.

Yikes, that's 12 players either bringing realistic Div1 playing time or perceived talent to the table next year. Something will certainly have to give.

[ShockerFever]

Marshall obviously was a big factor for Coy. But I think you're seriously undervaluing the whole 'baseball' aspect of the situation..

[BostonWu]

Cold,

In a round about sorta rubber room crazy you make some good points, allow me to expound for a moment.

You are watching the first 15 games of Gregg's 1st class. Ramon, Mantas and Aaron do not count. We needed bodies in NO time...we got what we got. I love the kids but MCDAA they are not nor were they ever. Was it suprising that we got some potential in 3 months and less? Sure. But those weren't the kids Gregg would have chosen.

Toure, Garrett, David, Reggie and Clevin. Those are on Gregg. They are into a 1/2 a season. That's all. Give them 2 years, watch them tear through the Valley and tell me what you think of recruiting. Until then, you have to take a step back....there are no Micheal Beasley's out there for us at least not today.

I find several contradictions (to reality) in your post like: "those weren't the kids Gregg would have chosen". In fact, Gregg was quite elated when he signed those players as was much of SN. The talk about rushed recruiting as an excuse for poor performance surfaced much later last season when we did a complete 180.

Cold,

What did you seriously think Gregg was going to find out on the recruiting trail just days into the job starting in April? Deep down he knew he would have to settle for players that he wouldn't have otherwise recruited. We can say that as fans but of course he is in no position to tell it like it is - he has to heap praise upon whoever he recruits. Is that so hard to understand?

And I'm rather amused by today's hip hip hooray attitude mixed in with a dash of back-handed compliments/insults. Keep it real bro.