2017-18 National Rankings

[WuShock16]

I think the word "lucky" is a poor word choice. During the early 1980's the 3 ball was not a part of the college basketball game. If it would have, this team would have been very good because Aubrey and Mike would have stretched out defenses and allowed Antoine, Cliff, and Ozell operate close to the basket.

Back to Mike, he was a very good, and also inconsistent long range shooter. Why shoot a long range shot and only receive 2 points when odds were better in close with the big guys, so he received a lot of deserved criticism when he took his long range jumper. Mike would have been a 33-35% 3 point shooter in his day if they had a 3 point shot (not great but a respectable percentage even today), and Aubrey would have been in the 40% range imo. Mike was in a shooting "slump" when the Battle of NO took place, but a 35 foot shot was definitely within his range. He probably was our best shooter from that deep. KU obviously was spending their defense clogging in their zone to stop Antoine, and our other inside big guys. Additionally, they were paying close attention to Aubrey. Mike got the shot and put it in to earn a spot in Shocker lore.

Yea Mike. :)

Aubrey wasn't on the Battle of New Orleans team. He and X both came the following season.

[im4wsu]

From 2004-2016, there have been 25 teams awarded a #1 seed. They have played 234 games, 16 of which wre against another #1 seed.
Of the remaining 218 games where a #1 seed has played a 2-16 seed, the #1 seed has compiled a record of 179-39, 82.1%.
Here are the records by team:

Team	Win	Loss	Percent
Illinois	5	0	100.0%
UCLA	4	0	100.0%
Wisconsin	4	0	100.0%
UNC	31	3	91.2%
Florida	9	1	90.0%
Louisville	9	1	90.0%
Memphis	8	1	88.9%
Kentucky	14	2	87.5%
Ohio State	7	1	87.5%
Gonzage	6	1	85.7%
Duke	21	4	84.0%
Kansas	19	6	76.0%
Arizona	3	1	75.0%
Uconn	6	2	75.0%
Oregon	3	1	75.0%
St. Joseph's	3	1	75.0%
Syracuse	5	2	71.4%
Virginia	5	2	71.4%
Indiana	2	1	66.7%
Michigan St	2	1	66.7%
Pittsburgh	4	2	66.7%
Washington	2	1	66.7%
Villanova	5	3	62.5%
Stanford	1	1	50.0%
Wichita State	1	1	50.0%
Total	179	39	82.1%

[shockmonster]

Aubrey wasn't on the Battle of New Orleans team. He and X both came the following season.

You are correct. The outside shooters that year was Tony Martin and Randy Smithson. Tony Martin was injured in that game so Randy was who they were paying attention to. I think that Karl Papke played some point guard for the first time in that game as a Freshman.

[Fairgame]

NOT a KU fan at all, but a couple of observations:
1) Phog Allen is not the greatest coach of all time. Not even at KU. If he is, then Ralph Miller is the GOAT at WSU
2) If not for a lucky shot by Mike Jones, Shox lose the battle of New Orleans.

Lucky shot? What the hell does that mean? Could you define this statement?

[ShockingButTrue]

Thanks. That is honest. I'm actually not looking to knock Coach K. Even with his "recent failures", I'm hard pressed to find many coaches with more post season success during that time frame. Maybe that's my point. There is too much assuming going on that every top 10 team should go to the Final Four or else they were a failure. It just can't work that way. Statistically, fewer than 50% of 1 seeds actually make the Final Four. Coach K's run in the late 80s and 90s was incredible. I think too many people expect that level of post season success, and get misguided into believing that anything less is a failure.



Obviously, I'm one who thinks this "regular season is meaningless" approach is silly. But yes, many people think that way.

I do disagree, however, that either KU or Duke would be found to have "way underperformed their seeding" in the past 14 years. Slighty? Maybe. Way? No.

Finally, let's stop and recognize how great, and rare, of an accomplishment it is to have been such a high seed, on such a consistent basis, for such a long time.

4 more Natl. Championships at Self will be right there with Coach K.

[ShockingButTrue]

You are correct. The outside shooters that year was Tony Martin and Randy Smithson. Tony Martin was injured in that game so Randy was who they were paying attention to. I think that Karl Papke played some point guard for the first time in that game as a Freshman.

And Ozell wasn't suiting up then either, unfortunately.

[WuShock16]

Was Fred's shot against Gonzaga a "lucky shot?" Because I would argue that his shot might have been farther out than the game-winner from Mike Jones.

[ShockingButTrue]

I am not a Beaker fan either; but regards Phog Allen, who (especially at KU) do you think is a better coach?

Dean Smith's mentor, and the man who recruited Larry Brown, Frank McGuire. He was on the sideline in '57 against the stilt.

[ShockdaWorld]

Thanks. That is honest. I'm actually not looking to knock Coach K. Even with his "recent failures", I'm hard pressed to find many coaches with more post season success during that time frame. Maybe that's my point. There is too much assuming going on that every top 10 team should go to the Final Four or else they were a failure. It just can't work that way. Statistically, fewer than 50% of 1 seeds actually make the Final Four. Coach K's run in the late 80s and 90s was incredible. I think too many people expect that level of post season success, and get misguided into believing that anything less is a failure.



Obviously, I'm one who thinks this "regular season is meaningless" approach is silly. But yes, many people think that way.

I do disagree, however, that either KU or Duke would be found to have "way underperformed their seeding" in the past 14 years. Slighty? Maybe. Way? No.

Finally, let's stop and recognize how great, and rare, of an accomplishment it is to have been such a high seed, on such a consistent basis, for such a long time.

We actually had this discussion last year or the year before after KU got knocked out of the NCAA tourney and determined that KU/B12 performed more poorly (based on seeding only) than anyone else in the tourney on average over a 5-10 year span (I can't remember which), but we were trying to determine a reason and couldn't come up with a metric to explain the short comings during crunch time. I've looked for the discussion for a little while, but haven't found it yet.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

We actually had this discussion last year or the year before after KU got knocked out of the NCAA tourney and determined that KU/B12 performed more poorly (based on seeding only) than anyone else in the tourney on average over a 5-10 year span (I can't remember which), but we were trying to determine a reason and couldn't come up with a metric to explain the short comings during crunch time. I've looked for the discussion for a little while, but haven't found it yet.

Looking for this?

http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?21575-NCAA-Tournament-Scores-and-Discussion-Thread&p=651793&viewfull=1#post651793

[Shocker1976]

Dean Smith's mentor, and the man who recruited Larry Brown, Frank McGuire. He was on the sideline in '57 against the stilt.

Frank McGuire versus Phog Allen, I hate to defend anything Beaker but I would take Allen over McGuire every day of the week.

Regards mentoring Dean Smith, Smith played for Phog Allen at KU for four years and served on Allen's coaching staff after graduation. Smith did replace McGuire when UNC forced McGuire out due to a point shaving fiasco. UNC's President Aycock promoted Smith to the job telling him that the integrity of the school was more important than winning basketball games. Of course we all are familiar with the academic boondoggle in place at UNC during the last decade of Smith's coaching career.

[ShockingButTrue]

Frank McGuire versus Phog Allen, I hate to defend anything Beaker but I would take Allen over McGuire every day of the week.

Regards mentoring Dean Smith, Smith played for Phog Allen at KU for four years and served on Allen's coaching staff after graduation. Smith did replace McGuire when UNC forced McGuire out due to a point shaving fiasco. UNC's President Aycock promoted Smith to the job telling him that the integrity of the school was more important than winning basketball games. Of course we all are familiar with the academic boondoggle in place at UNC during the last decade of Smith's coaching career.

Wilt the stilt wasn't enough to overcome Coach McGuire.

[ShockdaWorld]

Looking for this?

http://shockernet.net/forum/showthre...l=1#post651793

Yes. That's exactly what I was talking about. I couldn't remember the details. Thank you for posting it. It's still a weird conundrum why it works that way. I know the B12 has and has had some excellent coaches, but maybe they just aren't just on quite the same level when it comes to tournament time. Not speaking ONLY about BS, but more in general terms.

[Shocker1976]

Wilt the stilt wasn't enough to overcome Coach McGuire.

Dick Harp was KU coach; Phog was forced to retire by Kansas BoR.

[ShockingButTrue]

Dick Harp was KU coach; Phog was forced to retire by Kansas BoR.

I knew that. It was Harp's first year. And the stilt still wasn't enough to beat McGuire's team, short as they were.