2017-18 National Rankings

[AZ Shocker]

Perhaps a different way to look at it...??? Hypothetically speaking of course...

I wonder how many NC's, Elite 8's or even Sweet 16's Coach Greg Marshall would have the past 10 years had he coached at Duke, N. Carolina, Kentucky or Bubble U?????

[wufan]

I'm going to ask: how BAD is Bill Self? 4th, 8th, 15th? List who you put in front of him and by what metric.

Dude is a top 10 active coach by any metric.

[wufan]

if you want a more valid comparison, compare Self at ORU, Tulsa, and Illinois 1993-2003 to Gregg.

BS Total Record. 207-105

ORU 2 NIT Invites and Total Record. 55-54

TU Total Record. 74-27
2 NCAA
1 E 8
Illinois. 78-24
1 E 8
1 S 16
6-3 NCAA Record

Gregg Total 455-173
Winthrop 194-83
7 NCAA
1-6 NCAA Record
WSU 261-90
2 NITs
1 NIT Champs
6 NCAAs
1 F 4
1 undefeated Season
1 #1 Seed
9-6 NCAA Record
1 NCOY

If you REALLY want to go like for like, compare HCGMs first four years at Winthrop to Bills four years at ORU and Greggs first three at WSU to Bills three at TU.

[ShockingButTrue]

If you REALLY want to go like for like, compare HCGMs first four years at Winthrop to Bills four years at ORU and Greggs first three at WSU to Bills three at TU.

How about just head-to-head? Who appeared to be the better coach?

[wufan]

How about just head-to-head? Who appeared to be the better coach?

Marshall is 1-0 HTH. I will take that! It's not exactly statistically significant though is it?

[ICT2CLT]

Interesting, and I think The Flagship may well not make it to the second weekend either -- but not really related to Shocker basketball (which of course means it fits perfectly in ShockerNet's forum on WSU men's basketball).

I'm personally much more interested in whether this is going to be Marshall's BEST team. I think yes, although how that translates into record and results in a new and tougher league we'll just have to wait and find out. I'm certainly encouraged by the example of Creighton's first year in their current home; plus, I believe there's a great chance for a deep run come March (and April) as long as the Shocks stay healthy in key spots.

That's fair. I don't know if this will be his best team. Final fours are extremely difficult to get to, and that's how I and most people evaluate top programs (as evidenced by the the debate over Self's record going on in this thread). It could be another final four run or farther, but could be a disappointment. I do think it's pretty safe to assume that this year he should amass the largest number of high quality, high profile wins. The AAC is going to be so much fun to watch!

[shockmonster]

@shockmonster:, Gregg Marshall may indeed finish his career as the more accomplished coach. Yes, he is on an excellent trajectory. But no, I'm not ignoring Self's last 14 years to look at his 1990s mid-major days... not when the topic is "greatest active coaches".

When you focus so much attention on success relative to setting, you will inevitably just find yourself studying the 2007-2008 Drake Bulldogs for the rest of your life. :-)

KU is a much easier place to win than anywhere that either of these coaches have been before. The table is set for a Self at KU. In comparisons, the AAC will be more comparable to KU than the MVC has. Actually, Illinois and the Big 10 is closer to the equivalent to a WSU and the AAC.

[ShockTalk]

Since arriving at KU in 2004, Bill has more Elite 8s than Mike Krzyzewski. Is Mike an underachiever the past 14 years?

I disagree that the regular season should be totally ignored, and I disagree that Mike's 1 additional NC should somehow make everything else irrelevant.

(oh, and by the way, Duke has more 1st round flameouts the past 14 years than KU too)

I guess one could make a case for Coach K lacking consistency during that time. After all, those years do look like his best years are behind him.

Since you used a little cherry-picking to question Mike's worth and compare Bill to him, I will do the same and you tell me if Bill has also had his kind of success, even close.

For 21 years running from the 1985-86 season through 2005-06, Coach K finished less than the S16 only 4 times, including 10 F4s of which there were 3 NCs and 4 more championship games. I think Coach K had already made his "greatness" as a coach before his later years.

Regular season: OK. Mike only finished 1st 11 times during those 21 "great" years, so he didn't match Bill in that area. However, it appears Bill didn't/doesn't have a North Carolina to compete with either. That kind of thing makes these comparisons tough.

To be clear, I'm not saying Self isn't a very good, maybe great coach, but it does appear the really great coaches have play to their seeding much more often, for a good period of time, through that coach's career.

Maybe I'm reserving the "great" tag too tightly, but if you're coaching a supposed "blue blood", all areas of performance, particularly the NCAAs, need to be "great".

What's even tougher for me is to properly evaluate is "greatness" in coaches that never had the opportunity to coach where their teams didn't overflow with the top talent year in, year out. No doubt, I feel I'm witness one first hand, but I also know the situation of our own program so much better than other similar programs that have had greatness in their midst.

[shockmonster]

That's why Jim Calhoun deserves immense respect. UCONN, historically isn't a blue blood in the category of KU Kentucky, and UCLA. He built their program. Self has been a steward of a power built in the 1940s.

[wufan]

I guess one could make a case for Coach K lacking consistency during that time. After all, those years do look like his best years are behind him.

Since you used a little cherry-picking to question Mike's worth and compare Bill to him, I will do the same and you tell me if Bill has also had his kind of success, even close.

For 21 years running from the 1985-86 season through 2005-06, Coach K finished less than the S16 only 4 times, including 10 F4s of which there were 3 NCs and 4 more championship games. I think Coach K had already made his "greatness" as a coach before his later years.

Regular season: OK. Mike only finished 1st 11 times during those 21 "great" years, so he didn't match Bill in that area. However, it appears Bill didn't/doesn't have a North Carolina to compete with either. That kind of thing makes these comparisons tough.

To be clear, I'm not saying Self isn't a very good, maybe great coach, but it does appear the really great coaches have play to their seeding much more often, for a good period of time, through that coach's career.

Maybe I'm reserving the "great" tag too tightly, but if you're coaching a supposed "blue blood", all areas of performance, particularly the NCAAs, need to be "great".

What's even tougher for me is to properly evaluate is "greatness" in coaches that never had the opportunity to coach where their teams didn't overflow with the top talent year in, year out. No doubt, I feel I'm witness one first hand, but I also know the situation of our own program so much better than other similar programs that have had greatness in their midst.

Coach K was, is, and forever will be better than Self. JH4P picked Ks bad numbers precisely to demonstrate that the greatest current coach can be shown to be weak IF you cherry pick your analytics. No one on this forum has claimed that Self is the best current coach, only that he is an elite coach and within the company of the 5 or 10 best coaches in the country as evidence by several metrics.

As a counter point, yeah it is easier to win at KU than at 340+ other DI schools, but he is doing well there and he did VERY well at Tulsa and Illinois before that.

[ShockTalk]

Coach K was, is, and forever will be better than Self. JH4P picked Ks bad numbers precisely to demonstrate that the greatest current coach can be shown to be weak IF you cherry pick your analytics. No one on this forum has claimed that Self is the best current coach, only that he is an elite coach and within the company of the 5 or 10 best coaches in the country as evidence by several metrics.

As a counter point, yeah it is easier to win at KU than at 340+ other DI schools, but he is doing well there and he did VERY well at Tulsa and Illinois before that.

I think you hit on a key word: elite. I can comfortably give that title to a much wider spectrum of coaches and it does justice to both power and non power conference schools. There just seemed to be (to me) a big difference between very good and great.

Never thought anyone on this forum claimed Self to be the best current coach (would not even replied to such a post).

I didn't cherry-pick certain years as JH4P, but did cherry-pick a certain metric. One I thought any successful coach would to be proud to be known for. I also thought that 14 years worth of NCAAs would be enough to make some judgements by. I believe that there is bias as to certain seeding and that over time, it makes itself known. I seem to remember some sportswriter type bringing this underperformance to light.

[Veritas]

Though a few years old, the link reflects some interesting stats.
Self is NOT a great coach. Additionally, the development of certain players (or lack of-- Ellis) leaves a lot to be desired.
For a true Blue Blood program who is afforded inflated pre-season rankings, high RPIs and undeserved seeds, KU underperforms. Additionally the behavior of some players is frankly embarrassing.

http://rockchalkblog.com/2015/03/22/self-in-the-tournament/

[Fairgame]

Lets look at this in a different way. Which program has had the most McDonald's All-Americans, over the last 15 years, and what is that programs post season record with having that talent?

In other words, WHO HAS DONE THE LEASTES WITH THE MOSTES?

[another shocker]

Lets look at this in a different way. Which program has had the most McDonald's All-Americans, over the last 15 years, and what is that programs post season record with having that talent?

In other words, WHO HAS DONE THE LEASTES WITH THE MOSTES?

well, i'll have to agree with uconn husky here- i'd rather have gregg marshall than bill self as head coach at wichita state university. yeah, seriously. 100% slam dunk, fo' sho'. some here think differently than that. that's ok too.

the one h2h matchup between the two of them is pretty telling, though, wufan, career statistics be damned. or maybe you classify that as a major upset.

[ShockingButTrue]

That's why Jim Calhoun deserves immense respect. UCONN, historically isn't a blue blood in the category of KU Kentucky, and UCLA. He built their program. Self has been a steward of a power built in the 1940s.

ALL day this... Those squads played ferocious defense, which as we all know, is what wins championships.