2017-18 National Rankings

[another shocker]

self has a top-notch winning %. but.. it isn't just wichita state fans that have said "gregg marshall may just be the best college basketball coach in the country." i've heard that phrase a few times from around the country (starting with jim schaus saying it first, years ago, of course). keep your eyes and ears open, and you'll hear it again this season from somebody not associated with the shox.

[grudkin]

http://imgur.com/gallery/JxVflBp

Shocks called a timeout right before five seconds inbound whistle, iirc. I think it was at that moment Self realized KU wasn't going to be able to dig themselves out of that hole. 3G put the clown suit on the Rug that day over and over again, was so sweet.

[ShockingButTrue]

Shocks called a timeout right before five seconds inbound whistle, iirc. I think it was at that moment Self realized KU wasn't going to be able to dig themselves out of that hole. 3G put the clown suit on the Rug that day over and over again, was so sweet.

Yep. Vastly superior game plan. Without Jans even, or Cle.

[im4wsu]

Yep. Vastly superior game plan. Without Jans even, or Cle.

Self completely undervalued Wessel

[ShockingButTrue]

Self completely undervalued Wessel

The game-plan said P. Ellis is vulnerable past 7'. The Chickens didn't (OR COULDN'T) adjust, due to personnel. It's just that simple.

[WuShock16]

Can you imagine what that tidal wave of a run would have been like or felt like had it occurred in Koch Arena? Wichita State would have won that game by 30.

[grudkin]

Can you imagine what that tidal wave of a run would have been like or felt like had it occurred in Koch Arena? Wichita State would have won that game by 30.

The roof on the Chuck would have to be rebuilt, no doubt.

[ShockingButTrue]

Can you imagine what that tidal wave of a run would have been like or felt like had it occurred in Koch Arena? Wichita State would have won that game by 30.

Ho Hum... It would have looked like just a another Valley beatdown. :yahoo:

[shockmonster]

Over the past 14 seasons, Self has:
- Most regular season success (by pretty much any metric)
- Most NCAA Tournament wins (33)
- 2nd most round of 32 appearances (12)
- Tied for most Sweet 16 appearances (9)
- 3rd most Elite 8 appearances (5)

So there are 7 active coaches with 3 or more Final Four appearances. So what? Are you going to place Jim Boeheim (also just 1 NC and significantly more bad years mixed in) or Ben Howland (0 NCs) above Bill Self overall? I doubt it. See, even using Final Fours, or NC appearances, or NCs, Self ends up pretty darn high on the list.

Unless you want to limit the list of current "great" coaches to about 2-3, Self pretty much has to be on the list.

if you want a more valid comparison, compare Self at ORU, Tulsa, and Illinois 1993-2003 to Gregg.

BS Total Record. 207-105

ORU 2 NIT Invites and Total Record. 55-54

TU Total Record. 74-27
2 NCAA
1 E 8
Illinois. 78-24
1 E 8
1 S 16
6-3 NCAA Record

Gregg Total 455-173
Winthrop 194-83
7 NCAA
1-6 NCAA Record
WSU 261-90
2 NITs
1 NIT Champs
6 NCAAs
1 F 4
1 undefeated Season
1 #1 Seed
9-6 NCAA Record
1 NCOY

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

@shockmonster:, Gregg Marshall may indeed finish his career as the more accomplished coach. Yes, he is on an excellent trajectory. But no, I'm not ignoring Self's last 14 years to look at his 1990s mid-major days... not when the topic is "greatest active coaches".

When you focus so much attention on success relative to setting, you will inevitably just find yourself studying the 2007-2008 Drake Bulldogs for the rest of your life. :-)

[ShockingButTrue]

BIGG difference between success at a Valley school and success at Winthrop. Those of us on this board who have followed college ball for 40+ years, some much longer, probably don't recall there even being a Wintrhrop in D1. His last team there was better than Turgeon's at WSU. Easily.

[rrshock]

I would have Self ahead of 3G at this point in time, but...

I'd want 3G as my team's coach going forward...not even a question. One coach consistently under-performs in the big dance while the other one consistently over-performs. I like 3G to win 2 'Ships before Self wins his second.

I like your way of thinking!!

[pogo]

http://imgur.com/gallery/JxVflBp

I could watch that for hours:)

[ShockTalk]

@shockmonster:, Gregg Marshall may indeed finish his career as the more accomplished coach. Yes, he is on an excellent trajectory. But no, I'm not ignoring Self's last 14 years to look at his 1990s mid-major days... not when the topic is "greatest active coaches".

When you focus so much attention on success relative to setting, you will inevitably just find yourself studying the 2007-2008 Drake Bulldogs for the rest of your life. :-)

I have no evidence to support my position which I know is very important. That said, what I'm baffled with is just my observations, or what I believe them to be. A great coach at least meets or exceeds expectations over a reasonable about of time. Are their any other college programs over the time period Self has been at KU that are considered as programs close to the same, or exceed KU's stature that has performed worse in the NCAAs? Which have performed as well or better, and if better, how much better?

Am I throwing out the regular season? Yes. I'd say that there has been significant years to make a good case using just the NCAAs. After all, that is crunch time and cream rises to the top. One could throw a lot of good coaches into KU, NC, and Duke and they would perform well overall, some would not. That makes a good/better coach or not so good coach. But, as I said before, greatness should be measured by expectations somewhat dependent on where one coaches. How would other major conferences look at their coach if he dominated their conference the way KU has dominated the Big 12, had the seeding KU has had, but had the overall Dance performance of out twice in the 1st round, out 3 times in the R32, and only 2 F4s in 14 years?

I actually have no dislike of Self like I do of Williams, Brown, or Owens. I simply believe he has underachieved post league compared to his league achievements. For me, that puts some dampness on his "greatness".

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I have no evidence to support my position which I know is very important. That said, what I'm baffled with is just my observations, or what I believe them to be. A great coach at least meets or exceeds expectations over a reasonable about of time. Are their any other college programs over the time period Self has been at KU that are considered as programs close to the same, or exceed KU's stature that has performed worse in the NCAAs? Which have performed as well or better, and if better, how much better?

Am I throwing out the regular season? Yes. I'd say that there has been significant years to make a good case using just the NCAAs. After all, that is crunch time and cream rises to the top. One could throw a lot of good coaches into KU, NC, and Duke and they would perform well overall, some would not. That makes a good/better coach or not so good coach. But, as I said before, greatness should be measured by expectations somewhat dependent on where one coaches. How would other major conferences look at their coach if he dominated their conference the way KU has dominated the Big 12, had the seeding KU has had, but had the overall Dance performance of out twice in the 1st round, out 3 times in the R32, and only 2 F4s in 14 years?

I actually have no dislike of Self like I do of Williams, Brown, or Owens. I simply believe he has underachieved post league compared to his league achievements. For me, that puts some dampness on his "greatness".

Since arriving at KU in 2004, Bill has more Elite 8s than Mike Krzyzewski. Is Mike an underachiever the past 14 years?

I disagree that the regular season should be totally ignored, and I disagree that Mike's 1 additional NC should somehow make everything else irrelevant.

(oh, and by the way, Duke has more 1st round flameouts the past 14 years than KU too)