2017-18 National Rankings

[im4wsu]

The problem with your view is that you are seeing the inexperienced Shockers in October when we played three of those games with only one returning starter (and some part time starters) from a team dominated by two Future NBA players. Kenpom is showing a total Year and how we dominated the teams in February by an average of 20 points after giving the ball to Landry as our team leader (in October he was an inexperienced RS Frosh). Your opinion is fine. We are used to being doubted but this year it isn't by the media (even former NBAers in the media) who know that in addition to KenPom we passed the eye test late in the year against good competition. I think it'll be hard but we will earn your respect. If we have some players like Landry, Shaq, Willis, and McDuffy continue to improve, we may even contend for Top 5-10 nationally and maybe a F4. Your underestimation is understood and accepted however ill-informed it might be.

Prior to tipoff vs. Louisville in Atlantis, out entire scholarship roster had accumulated 5804 of Div I minutes. At the end of the year, those same players had accumulated 12,664 Div I minutes, and the returning players for 2017-18 have accumulated 12,004 Div I minutes. That inexperienced group was attempting to play those Louisville and Michigan State games without two NBA players at the guard position as well as Evan "never saw a loose ball he couldn't get" Wessell and Anton Grady (7.8 pts/ 4.6 reb) at center. WE were double digit behind Louisville most of the second half, but we were down by two with the ball with 39 seconds left before losing to Michigan State.

[ShockerPhi]

Yesssss, gooood. Let the trash talk begin!

[WSUwatcher]

It's harder to play 'chip on your shoulder' basketball when ranked in the top 10 and actually in a conference that cares.

Can anyone here seriously imagine the Shockers under Marshall becoming a bunch of self-satisfied fat cats? 3G is hungry; the team will be hungry. If anything, it would be easier to coast in a place like the Valley where winning the league wasn't as much of a challenge as winning the American will be.

[forevershockerfan]

Mike Kennedy through the years has mentioned how a team with key solid Senior leadership should make a big splash in terms of wins. Once the Conference and Dance play begins, I'm doubting many teams have seven experienced Seniors or 10 players with NCAA Dance rotation minutes as we should. Few teams Dancing, if any, will compare in this quality depth area. Our team D. should also be among the very best out there too. Even so, this schedule will be tough and I hope it prepares us for a banner Season with a great finish as icing on the cake. We will be tested like never before in the duration of a Season IMO and this has been what we have been in search of for years.

[UCONN_Husky]

Mike Kennedy through the years has mentioned how a team with key solid Senior leadership should make a big splash in terms of wins. Once the Conference and Dance play begins, I'm doubting many teams have seven experienced Seniors or 10 players with NCAA Dance rotation minutes as we should. Few teams Dancing, if any, will compare in this quality depth area. Our team D. should also be among the very best out there too. Even so, this schedule will be tough and I hope it prepares us for a banner Season with a great finish as icing on the cake. We will be tested like never before in the duration of a Season IMO and this has been what we have been in search of for years.

All of our Championships were won with:

- Great guard-play
- Senior leadership
- Chip on our shoulder / having something to prove

I'd say you guys have all 3 this year...just sayin...

[Aargh]

this was originally written about the 2017 NCAA Tourney and what to watch out for when considering your next opponent.

Of the 8 warning sings that your team is about to suffer a defeat, #1 is "My goodness, look at all the seniors on their roster".

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2017/3/15/14858312/march-madness-2017-ncaa-tournament-loss-warning-signs

[bearcatmax]

While I agree that KenPom is best viewed as one of the strongest metrics in its universe while giving due consideration to the other quants, citing 1-4 vs. NCAAT is probably the weakest statistical example you could have come up with (versus citing, say, Sagarin or the other metrics you mention). NCAAT as a sample group has looser correlation to quality because of the bottom third of the bracket - pretending that 2 wins against RPI 30something Illinois State do not count in a universe where OOC home dubs against Texas Southern, UC Davis and Mount Saint Mary's would count illustrates the absurdity of the skew. You can make plenty of arguments that KenPom may have (slightly) overstated our rank last season but this is a poor choice.

Also, for accuracy's sake, we collected 2 wins against last year's field, not 1 - South Dakota State and Dayton.

Sorry, should have clarified that I meant teams that would be in the NCAAT without an autobid.

[bearcatmax]

The problem with your view is that you are seeing the inexperienced Shockers in October when we played three of those games with only one returning starter (and some part time starters) from a team dominated by two Future NBA players. Kenpom is showing a total Year and how we dominated the teams in February by an average of 20 points after giving the ball to Landry as our team leader (in October he was an inexperienced RS Frosh). Your opinion is fine. We are used to being doubted but this year it isn't by the media (even former NBAers in the media) who know that in addition to KenPom we passed the eye test late in the year against good competition. I think it'll be hard but we will earn your respect. If we have some players like Landry, Shaq, Willis, and McDuffy continue to improve, we may even contend for Top 5-10 nationally and maybe a F4. Your underestimation is understood and accepted however ill-informed it might be.

You could also argue that WSU looked much better in conference play because the competition was poor. There are a ton of different ways to slice and dice this.

I DO think that WSU will be very good next year. Where that falls in the landscape of college basketball, I don't know. I watched the Dayton/UK games, and I was impressed by WSU. But from my perspective there just aren't many data points of WSU against top notch competition, and for the most part WSU came up short in those situations.

[Play Angry]

Luckily for all of us there will data points aplenty early this season with Maui and the balance of our OOC slate. We will be battle tested come conference play.

[Cdizzle]

You could also argue that WSU looked much better in conference play because the competition was poor. There are a ton of different ways to slice and dice this.

I DO think that WSU will be very good next year. Where that falls in the landscape of college basketball, I don't know. I watched the Dayton/UK games, and I was impressed by WSU. But from my perspective there just aren't many data points of WSU against top notch competition, and for the most part WSU came up short in those situations.

Haterz gon hate.

Winnerz gon win.

[Dan]

A lot of teams will be working in new players early in the season and testing those new players against good competition. We will be starting the season with the same team that finished last season and they will be even better by the time the conference games roll around. That's why we're pre-season Top 5 material.

[bearcatmax]

Prior to tipoff vs. Louisville in Atlantis, out entire scholarship roster had accumulated 5804 of Div I minutes. At the end of the year, those same players had accumulated 12,664 Div I minutes, and the returning players for 2017-18 have accumulated 12,004 Div I minutes. That inexperienced group was attempting to play those Louisville and Michigan State games without two NBA players at the guard position as well as Evan "never saw a loose ball he couldn't get" Wessell and Anton Grady (7.8 pts/ 4.6 reb) at center. WE were double digit behind Louisville most of the second half, but we were down by two with the ball with 39 seconds left before losing to Michigan State.

Freshman scored over half of Michigan State's points against WSU.

Not trying to troll here at all, just present a conflicting view point. Hopefully you all are enjoying the banter as much as I am...

[Cdizzle]

Freshman scored over half of Michigan State's points against WSU.

Not trying to troll here at all, just present a conflicting view point. Hopefully you all are enjoying the banter as much as I am...

2 weeks after getting boat-raced by Kentucky.

They also got boat-raced in their 2nd Rd NCAA game.

Perhaps WSU got a lot better.

[Play Angry]

Cincinnati went 1-5 against Top 50 teams away from Fifth Third Arena last season. YIKES.

Dumb cherrypicking is dumb. I think folks would be hard-pressed to present solid arguments for more than 10 or 11 teams that should be ranked ahead of us to start next season, and I think reasonable arguments can be made that place us as high as the Top 3 or 4. Nobody in the country returns more firepower than we do. That's not hyperbole, it's the truth - there will be no training wheels phase for this team. We will come out on Day 1 as a finely-tuned ass kicking machine.

2018-19 has a lot of unknowns and our conference peers can justifiably look forward to projecting a dip for us that year. This season, however, we are a T-Rex firing howitzers with one foot astride his pet pterodactyl and the other resting inside an apache helicopter. With lasers coming out of his eyes.

The Shockers bring nothing but pain this season and the daffodils in our path best wilt or they will be steamrolled.

[Aargh]

You could also argue that WSU looked much better in conference play because the competition was poor. There are a ton of different ways to slice and dice this.

I DO think that WSU will be very good next year. Where that falls in the landscape of college basketball, I don't know. I watched the Dayton/UK games, and I was impressed by WSU. But from my perspective there just aren't many data points of WSU against top notch competition, and for the most part WSU came up short in those situations.

You've gone back to the same argument you made before, which under any scrutiny turns out to be that WSU wasn't a solid team at THE BEGINNING of the year.

What that analysis misses is the fact that at the beginning of the year, WSU had no players with any significant experience playing PG. It's hard to beat Louisville and Michigan State early in the year with potential PG's who really haven't played the position in D1 competition. Frankamp had been almost exclusively a SG. Shamet and Reaves were Fr. Daishon Smith was a first-year JuCo trfr.

About halfway through the season, the position "clicked" for Shamet and the team's entire personality changed. Shamet was running the offense effectively. that relieved Frankamp of that responsibility, which bumped his 3-point shooting from around 30% to around 50%.

The difference between the beginning and the end of the season is that we had a Freshman (Shamet) who learned a position that was WSU's biggest early weakness. That freed up our sniper (Frankamp) to concentrate on shooting and bumped his shooting stats from around 30% to around 50%.

Everybody complains when WSU fans trot out Shamet's game against Kentucky as justification for his play at PG. It's silly to attempt to justify his game by referring to games against the likes of Drake and evansville, so we can only look at the better teams he faced. He had 14 against Illinois State, 13 against Dayton and 20 against Kentucky.

Beginning of the season there was no PG. End of the season there was a PG getting NBA scouting looks as a Fr. ESPN named Shamet the #15 player in D1 for the coming year. We started last year with a Fr who didn't know the pposition he would eventually play and a SG playing PG. We ended the season with the SG in his normal spot and a Fr PG who's likely to get consideration for some pre-season AA lists this year.

Comparing the beginning of the season to the end of the season is like comparing apples to bananas. Can't use apples to oranges because those have about the same shape.