Shockers at Redbirds Game Thread

[Kung Wu]

If he can shoot. If not Id give the nod to Baker. Cant have a 2 guard that cant shoot starting IMO.

Baker will start too. Book it.

[Kung Wu]

Question: If Tekele Cotton is not the MVP Defensive Player of the Year this year, then who is? Carmichael? Echenique? Simms-Edwards? Tekele gets my vote, which unfortunatley doesn't count for anything.

Right on. EO as runner up.

[pogo]

my two cents worth on the kicking incident. i don't know anything about carmichael,
therefore, i'd like to take the high road and give him the benefit of the doubt whether it
was intentional or not. he DID kick cotton but i think it could have been more of an
uncontrolable reflex rather than intentional, but even if it was a reflex i think the refs HAD to
call it a flagrant foul i also believe there is a silent majority of basically good isu fans just
as there is at wsu

I don't think we have a very silent majority of basically good fans...I think they are loud and raucous.

[Shocker85]

First time poster to your site. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in...

Ninja Jackie - I am completely fine with this being what it was. However, in no way was it intentional. Jackie often kicks a leg for a rebound. I have no idea why, but he does. This was just the first time someone was in his way. The replay from under the hoop best illustrates that it wasn't on purpose. His leg had already started extending when his head and eyes were tilted up towards the ball. Immediately after, he saw the WSU player and bent his leg back, but it was too late. Not on purpose, but it did happen and no sense arguing it being a no call. Any fan base would be upset if that happened to their team and would want their coach to call for a replay. Jackie has never been even rumored to be a dirty player by any one, even other fans. Even our last coach tried to get him to be meaner. This was just an unfortunate ending to one of his kicking rebounds. It was bound to happen one day I guess.

Refs - seriously, how often do both teams walk away saying "That was a really good officiated game"? It never happens. I think they got it wrong saying that the contact was made above the shoulders and they got it wrong when they gave the wrong guy the free throws.

ISU still had a chance. The refs almost never cause a tem to lose. One play almost never causes a team to lose. There are always numerous things that could have been done differently.

After the game - teams/coaches/fans should have handled it better. Plenty of blame to go around there. I love the rivalry these teams have been having lately. Keep the game and atmosphere clean and play hard. May the better team win.

I really don't have an issue with your players. And all fan bases have the guys that think their team does no wrong. For the most part I feel we have the best 2 fan bases in the league. I don't like your coach, but everyone has an opposing player/coach they don't like. Mine just happens to be yours. Sorry.

Anyway, I hope to hell we meet again in STL. Would be a very good matchup.

Why do you people come over here and try to suck up to us???

Then you end your courteous drivel with, "I don't like your coach."

We don't like anything about you, so go tell your red feathered lemmings that one.

--'85.

[BRocca]

He already had the ball gathered and wrapped up before he kicked his leg while looking at Cotton. It was intentional and should have been a flagrant 2 with a few games of suspension. All the offcial/referree snafus after is just a function of the poor quality of the initial missed call

Looked different to me. I just looked at it again on yahoo's sports minute. I see it a different way and we can agree to disagree. If Jackie had a history of dirty play, I would agree 1000 times on it. I don't want a player like that on my team. However, he doesn't have any history of dirty play while he does have a history of his kick rebound (I have no idea why he does it). Even during heated moments he's always kept his cool. If this were Wilkens from our team, knowing his history with you guys, I'd tend to lean toward agreeing that it was intentional, but with JC, I just don't see it. I actually thought at the time it should have been an offensive foul and you get two shots. But after seeing the replay, I'm good with the flagrant 1. I think flagrant 2 has to have intent and I don't think the refs thought there was enough intent.

Oh well, it is what it is. WSU made every play they needed to and hung tight despite a rough first half. Like I said, this play didn't cost us the game. I have a different view from you on it, but can see where your point of view comes from.

[newshock1234]

how can someone say it was not intentional when he looked right at Cotton and then extended his leg

[BRocca]

Why do you people come over here and try to suck up to us???

Then you end your courteous drivel with, "I don't like your coach."

We don't like anything about you, so go tell your red feathered lemmings that one.

--'85.

Wasn't sucking up. Just being totally honest. I actually do like the fans I've met and the players. Coach is a different story. Tell me you don't have someone that just rubs you the wrong way - on our team or not.

If you consider trying to have an honest conversation and giving credit where credit is due and not making excuses for our team losing sucking up, then thats your opinion.

[Aargh]

The fact that Carmichael was looking straight at Cotton mde it appear to be intentional. I can see where it could have been, "Oh crap, that guy is gonna get hit". The problem for Carmichael is that's not what it appeared to be

If Carmichael often extends that leg when rebounding, eventually there's going to be a player there and that player is going to get kicked. When that player gets kicked, there's going to be a flagrant fould called. A flagrant does not have to be above the shoulders and can involve any body part. It's essentially a technical foul, so anybody can shoot the throws.

If Carmichael has been extending that leg on rebounds his whole career, there should have been some coaching done. It's inevitable that 3-1/2 feet of leg sticking out isn't always going to just poke into empty space underneath the basket.

Maybe it was "just a basketball move". Well, moving the ball from in front of one shoulder to in front of the other shoulder is certainly a "basketball move", but if your elbow makes contact when you're doing that, you're gonna get called for it. I'd a lot sooner get jacked in the jaw by an elbow on the end of a 1 foot upper arm than have a size 18 foot on the end of a 3-1/2 foot leg catch up with me.

[Veritas]

First time poster to your site. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in...

.

You already did throw your 2 cents in.... at the WSU players as they exited the court!

[BRocca]

The fact that Carmichael was looking straight at Cotton mde it appear to be intentional. I can see where it could have been, "Oh crap, that guy is gonna get hit". The problem for Carmichael is that's not what it appeared to be

If Carmichael often extends that leg when rebounding, eventually there's going to be a player there and that player is going to get kicked. When that player gets kicked, there's going to be a flagrant fould called. A flagrant does not have to be above the shoulders and can involve any body part. It's essentially a technical foul, so anybody can shoot the throws.

If Carmichael has been extending that leg on rebounds his whole career, there should have been some coaching done. It's inevitable that 3-1/2 feet of leg sticking out isn't always going to just poke into empty space underneath the basket.

Maybe it was "just a basketball move". Well, moving the ball from in front of one shoulder to in front of the other shoulder is certainly a "basketball move", but if your elbow makes contact when you're doing that, you're gonna get called for it. I'd a lot sooner get jacked in the jaw by an elbow on the end of a 1 foot upper arm than have a size 18 foot on the end of a 3-1/2 foot leg catch up with me.

I agree. The eye contact is what is the worst part. I definately wouldn't call it a "basketball move". Therefore, it deserved a call. And, I wish I knew why no one has been able to get him to stop that. It usually seems to happen during a moment with a lot of momentum riding on it. It's like he gets excited and can't control a leg. You're guy was just in the wrong place.

Oh well, good luck out there. I'd like to see you guys again. Hopefully in the finals in STL!!!

[BRocca]

You already did throw your 2 cents in.... at the WSU players as they exited the court!

Ouch....but funny. In fairness, I wasn't there so I don't know what exactly happened. Had to catch it on TV. I've heard that and I hope it wasn't the case.

[SHOXAAC]

Looked different to me. I just looked at it again on yahoo's sports minute. I see it a different way and we can agree to disagree. If Jackie had a history of dirty play, I would agree 1000 times on it. I don't want a player like that on my team. However, he doesn't have any history of dirty play while he does have a history of his kick rebound (I have no idea why he does it). Even during heated moments he's always kept his cool. If this were Wilkens from our team, knowing his history with you guys, I'd tend to lean toward agreeing that it was intentional, but with JC, I just don't see it. I actually thought at the time it should have been an offensive foul and you get two shots. But after seeing the replay, I'm good with the flagrant 1. I think flagrant 2 has to have intent and I don't think the refs thought there was enough intent.

Oh well, it is what it is. WSU made every play they needed to and hung tight despite a rough first half. Like I said, this play didn't cost us the game. I have a different view from you on it, but can see where your point of view comes from.

Do you think JC's rebound with an opposing player near the point of landing is the first of its kind...please. This type of rebound has happened every game at every level of basketball and i have NEVER seen a player extend a leg like that. Your fan base has made this rediculous assertion that he had to extend his leg to protect himself; that Cotton was rapidly coming upon him. It's ok to call BS...well BS!

I also find it humorous that your fans claim since the official was looking directly at the play and didn't call anything, that any infraction must not have happened. I'm sure I wouldn't have to look far in a typical Redbird game thread to find examples of wanting an officials head because a foul wasn't called to favor the 'birds.

If one of our players had performed the "JC Ballet," 95% of our fan base would not be making rediculous excuses 'birds are.

[vancedave56]

Appreciate your logical input and level head - more is needed on both sides. In all reality, I don't believe it makes any difference if the contact was intentional or not.

[ShockerPrez]

Im sure JC is a fine person, but it doesnt mean his kick was unintentional. Hell, it may not have been malicious. It may have just been some crazy instinctive reaction. Like when someone comes from behind you and puts their hand on your shoulder, and you instinctively grab their arm and throw them to the ground and pounce on them.

Totally feel bad about it immediately and regret it.




But its still a flagrant foul.

[Aargh]

Post Game Coaches *Ahem* "Show"

This is from the IlSU board - apparently a security guard.

During post game handshakes, apparently one WSU coach disrespected Coach Ford...as both teams headed for the locker rooms, one of ISU assistants stuck up for Coach Ford by confronting said WSU coach...and mayhem ensued! Myself and some university police officers had to separate ISU coaches and players from WSU coaches and players!! Had the security not responded as such, blows most definitely would have been exchanged. Most surprising was how both head coaches responded...Muller tried to help diffuse the situation...Marshall was adding fuel to the fire by screaming back obscenities, showing no professionalism nor respect for either program. I personally had to hold back an ISU assistant during the scuffle. Not sure if this makes any sort of news outlet...but expect to see sanctions be placed upon both programs by the MVC! It could have got real ugly, real fast and put the MVC in such a negative light. What ever respect I had towards WSU and Marshall is now lost. Also the former ISU coach, now WSU coach was part of the obscenity exchanging and interaction with the fans.

And IlSU fans are calling Marshall classless. An ISU asst. coach followed the WSU team and staff to WSU's locker room and "stands up for Coach Ford by confronting the WSU coach". So, Muller follows his asst. to WSU's locker room and tries to diffuse the situation, while Marshall now finds the entire IlSU team and staff confronting him, his staff, and his players, but somehow he's supposed to be showing respect fot the program that's hunted down and confronted his team?

"Blows were going to be struck", but even from an IlSU perspective, only an IlSU asst. is being restrained by security.

I also noticed that WSU was given security to leave the building - not IlSU. Usually it's the threatened party that gets protection to leave a building when security is involved.