Maybe the end of "Mid Major"

[rrshock]

Clemson had some great years under Rick Barnes and had success with Oliver Purnell. They have slipped under Brownell but they have a decent history. Auburn likewise had some great teams under Cliff Ellis. Also have you heard of Charles Barkley? They have stuff in the trophy case to be proud of.

You know Vanderbilt won the SEC Tournament just last year right? Beat UK to do it. Pretty nice accomplishment I'd say. They were better than WSU last season by any and all objective measures I can tell you that much.

Providence and Iowa have also had some good teams. Look at the time that Tom Davis was at both or the time that Lute Olsen was at Iowa. These are good programs, not something to laugh at and think that you are inherently better than.

So I suppose Missery St is better then? Iowa can't hang with WSU. Providence couldn't the last couple times either. I forgot Vanderbilt won but haven't done anything else. Those schools I listed might finish mid range MVC. But they are considered major because of their conference.

[ShockTalk]

Very true about being in the Valley. I would argue that #4 on my list precedes practically everything on both our lists. If a program can't attract quality coaching--or if they jump ship at the earliest opportunity--and if good recruits aren't interested, then it's hard to win on the national stage.

So true. However, I consider your #4 as a prerequisite for a school before you can start this discussion, otherwise, they will probably be just a flash in the pan. Too many times, I have read that we're not a mid-major because "just look at our budget, our arena, our fan base, how much we pay our coaches, how the team travels". That's all good and well, but sooner or later, on its own, that just won't cut it. Those $s spent will need to lead to the rewards (our other items listed).

If it's done the "right way", it probably will take time to happen. I believe HCGM is doing that. We are starting to see some of that national recognition that we are a major program. However, we will not be a major player without the results/rewards, nor will be be consider a major program by most without those results/rewards. Just as we consider some BCS teams to be mid-majorish or less major than us, we are no better without the results/rewards.