2024-25 Mid-Season Grade

[ShockTalk]

WuShock Reaper, strength of schedule would weigh heavily on "success" along with strength of one's own conference in general as to who you are playing, "Up" or "Down".

[ShockTalk]

Also, movement of one's own players as to who and how many stayed or left.

[WuDrWu]

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...ita-state/men/

Coach(es)	Non Conf Wins %	Conf Wins %	Overall Wins %	Non Conf Grade	Conf Grade	Overall Grade
Eddie Fogler (20-10)	56%	79%	67%	D	B	C
Ralph Miller (16-11)	76%	30%	59%	B	F	D
Gene Smithson (17-12)	62%	56%	59%	C	D	D
Paul Mills (12-10)	77%	22%	55%	B	F	D
Gary Thompson (14-12)	42%	64%	54%	F	C	D
Isaac Brown (15-13)	69%	40%	54%	C	F	D
Randy Smithson (16-15)	38%	61%	52%	F	C	D
Mark Turgeon (15-15)	50%	50%	50%	F	D	F
Gregg Marshall (17-17)	56%	44%	50%	D	F	F
Harry Miller (10-16)	33%	43%	39%	F	F	F
Mike Cohen (10-19)	27%	43%	35%	F	F	F
Scott Thompson (9-18)	33%	33%	33%	F	F	F
Melvin Binford (8-17)	46%	17%	32%	F	F	F
Kenneth Gunning (7-17)	50%	8%	29%	F	F	F

Here are my grades going back roughly 80 years for the last 15 coaches who were in their 2nd season.
You can make an argument the Eddie Fogler should get a B, because he gets "extra credit" for getting the Shockers to the NCAA tournament. I believe he has been the only coach to do so in his 2nd season.

I know people aren't happy until I jump in and defend Eddie so here goes:


WSU was 20-10 Eddie's 2nd season (they got an at large NCAA bid)

In conference games they were 11-3 regular season and 1-1 in the MVC tourney. 12-4 and 8-6 non-con. NO way that 8-6 mark is a D. 8 home games, 5 road games and what amounted to a road game in the NCAA tourney playing DePaul in South Bend, IN.

Beat CState Northridge, ORU, Austin Peay, Radford, Illinois-Chicago & Grambling at home. Lost a 2 point game to #11 Purdue in Wichita (a game WSU led almost the entire way, fell behind in the last 2 minutes and couldn't a get shot to go down late), a loaded Boilermaker team that would go on to win the B1G and finish the season ranked 3rd. Lost to George Mason in Fairfax by 1 in OT when we were a miserable 13-27 from the line, missed a shot to win in regulation, then got a BS 5 second call followed by a BS foul with 5 seconds left allowing Mason to make both ends of a 1-1 to win the game. I'm certain ThomasKosich can verify this if needed. Then lost to Hartford in CT after 1 travel day by 7. Beat Clem Haskins' Minnesota Golden Gophers in Wichita. Lost a tough 2 point game at SWMO (before they joined the Valley and that SWMO team made the NCAA tourney and lost 1st round to UNLV by 4). Went to Corvalis and beat Ralph Miller's Beavers by 3 who would finish 2nd in the PAC10 and make the NCAAs as well. Lost an 11 point rock fight at KState when we just couldn't stop Mitch Richmond. KState finished 2nd in the Big 8 that season behind national runner up Oklahoma and ahead of the team that they beat twice, bad, who ended up winning the natty. KSU lost in the elite 8. Lost to DePaul in a disappointing NCAA game.

I'm not saying that's an A. Still, 8-6 with 5 games vs NCAA teams (winning a big one on the road and losing 1 basket games vs 2 others) is not a D by any sane use of brain activity. When was the last time we played 5 NCAA teams non-conference? I realize Gregg did a bunch when you get into him winning NCAA games, but even the undefeated 13-14 team played just 7 games vs NCAA opponents (Cal-Poly, Kentucky, Tennessee, Tulsa, NC-Central, BYU & St Louis). Fun fact, the A-10 got twice as many bids that season as the SEC, 6 to 3.

MAYBE you downgrade to a C for the really bad loss at Hartford (tough situation) but more like B to B-. Getting to the tourney is not easy. This team had a resume worthy of an at large.

[WuShock Reaper]

WuShock Reaper, strength of schedule would weigh heavily on "success" along with strength of one's own conference in general as to who you are playing, "Up" or "Down".

Rk	Season	Coach(es)	Non Conf Wins %	Conf Wins %	Overall Wins %	Non Conf Grade	Conf Grade	Overall Grade	SOS	Rank
38	1987-88	Eddie Fogler (20-10)	56%	79%	67%	D	B	C	2.0	101
73	1952-53	Ralph Miller (16-11)	76%	30%	59%	B	F	D	1.8	55
46	1979-80	Gene Smithson (17-12)	62%	56%	59%	C	D	D	3.5	54
1	2024-25	Paul Mills (12-10)	77%	22%	55%	B	F	D	1.7	107
59	1966-67	Gary Thompson (14-12)	42%	64%	54%	F	C	D	6.0	3
4	2021-22	Isaac Brown (15-13)	69%	40%	54%	C	F	D	6.0	78
28	1997-98	Randy Smithson (16-15)	38%	61%	52%	F	C	D	1.9	119
24	2001-02	Mark Turgeon (15-15)	50%	50%	50%	F	D	F	0.2	147
17	2008-09	Gregg Marshall (17-17)	56%	44%	50%	D	F	F	2.1	103
53	1972-73	Harry Miller (10-16)	33%	43%	39%	F	F	F	0.3	97
36	1989-90	Mike Cohen (10-19)	27%	43%	35%	F	F	F	4.9	68
32	1993-94	Scott Thompson (9-18)	33%	33%	33%	F	F	F	0.7	115
76	1949-50	Kenneth Gunning (7-17)	50%	8%	29%	F	F	F	1.0	69
79	1946-47	Melvin Binford (8-17)	46%	17%	32%	F	F	F	-na-	-na-

I have added in as comparison the Strength of Schedule (SOS) and corresponding rank. A SOS of 0 is the absolute average for that season. All the coaches had schedules that were stronger than the average, some significantly.

In regard to Eddie Fogler, I agree some additional recognition for getting the Shockers to the NCAA tournament. However, 8-6 nonconference is still 8-6. To be recognized in a positive manner, you have to win games. Should Isaac Brown (2021-22) been more credit for his 2nd season because his overall SOS was 3x harder than Fogler's?

[rjl]

For Paul Mills, I'd proffer that getting your ass whooped by UMKC does not merit a "B" in the nonconference by default, but maybe I'm just bitter.

[wsushockerdude]

Beating the ever-living piss out of K-State on our home court should automatically raise it from an "F" to a "D". But it's a "D" in my book so far.

[moshock]

I gave them a D - the only reason it's not an F is a few players like Washington and Ballard are giving an A effort - I wish that would rub off on some of the others

[WuShock16]

Gregg gets an F for his second season? The season where the Shocks competed admirably at a LOADED MTE in Orlando? The season where they gutted up after an 0-6 start in conference to finish 8-10? Where they won two games in STL (even though Creighton strangely played the third game for us)?

I wouldn’t give that season an A, but I sure as hell wouldn’t give an F either.

[ShockerFever]

Can't believe anyone would give this situation a passing grade, unless your expectations for WSU basketball are just that bad now.

[another shocker]

it's like they always try to dribble the ball through double team defense. ad nauseum.

pass that ball around without dribbling.. should be the standard. coach? watch what happens when quick, strong passing is an emphasis..

if this team played team basketball (don't over-dribble), they could go on an AAC tournament run. they have a surprising couple of guys that can play above the rim.

[WuShock Reaper]

Q: Good evening WuOracle. It is I the WuShock Reaper.
A: Good evening, WuShock Reaper! How can I assist you on this fine evening?

Q: Great. What letter grade A, B, C, D, or F would you give the Wichita State Men's Basketball team so far this season? Explain your reasoning.
A: I'd give the Wichita State men's basketball team a C for their performance so far this season. Here's why:

• Mixed Results: The Shockers have had some notable wins, like their recent victory over Charlotte, but they've also faced several losses, including a tough defeat to Tulsa.
• Defensive Struggles: The team has had issues defending against 3-point shots, allowing opponents to shoot 41.9% from beyond the arc.
• Potential for Improvement: Despite the challenges, there's still potential for the team to improve, especially if the injured players return and the team can tighten up their defense.

It's been a bit of a rollercoaster season, but there's still time for the Shockers to turn things around.

Q: What is their ceiling grade wise for the rest of the season and how much worse could their letter grade become. Explain your thoughts:
A: Given the current performance and potential improvements, I'd say the Wichita State men's basketball team's ceiling grade could be a B if they manage to significantly improve their defense, especially against 3-point shots, and get key players like Justin Hill and Harlond Beverly back from injury. If they can tighten up their defense and get consistent performances from their starters, they could climb up the standings and finish the season strong.

On the flip side, their grade could drop to a D if they continue to struggle defensively and fail to get their injured players back in form. If they don't address their defensive issues and can't find a way to win more consistently, they might end up with a disappointing season. It's definitely a pivotal time for the team, and their next few games will be crucial in determining their final grade. What do you think their chances are of turning things around?

Q: So an F is off the table?
A: Given their current performance and potential for improvement, it's unlikely they'll drop to an F unless things go drastically wrong. Here's why:

• Some Success: They’ve had some wins, showing they can compete.
• Room for Improvement: Key players might return, and there's potential to tighten their defense.
• Challenges: Continued struggles and injuries could hurt their performance, but they've shown enough capability to avoid an F.

So, while their grade could drop to a D, an F seems a bit extreme considering their current trajectory.

Q: Thanks buddy!
A: You're welcome! If you have any more questions or need assistance with anything else, feel free to ask. I'm here to help

[Kung Wu]

F+

[SubGod22]

Above we have proof that AI isn't there yet. Notable win against Charlotte? It thinks the defense can make improvements under a coach who has never had a team that showed it truly cared about defense?

At least the team in 3Gs second season showed improvement and you never really questioned the direction the program was headed. At least I didn't. Can't say anything close to the same right now.

[asiseeit]

AND, there is serious potential for an even further drop off next season with QB gone so I guess the "F" I gave might not even be the bottom. The good news for PM is that the bar for next season will be much lower.

[ShockTalk]

AND, there is serious potential for an even further drop off next season with QB gone so I guess the "F" I gave might not even be the bottom. The good news for PM is that the bar for next season will be much lower.

Do we really know how many on the roster have to be replaced due to no more eligibility? So are several different student designations. Senior, Fifth Year, Redshirt Senior which total 8. I did not count Meeks in that total.