Paul Mills Not Hot Seat

[BostonWu]

I'd refer you to the cumulative stats and the fact he almost always has to deal with double teams. Name a 6'6 guy on this team who would produce more as a center on either end of the court? If you know of one please contact the coaching staff asap. For that matter, a player of any height outside of QB who at best can only play 20-25 minutes.

Carl Hall might have been 6'7", maybe. I realize he's not on this team but I'd much rather have a little undersized big man who can play the game with toughness, intensity and skill than a 7 footer who is soft and plays like a guard who can't shoot.

[proshox]

Lots going on above


As bad as WSU was to start last year… HCPM has said “hold my beer” with this poop show. This doesn’t even get into the fact there was real coaching going on last year and the team improved… by the end of the year there was a lot of complex/well executed basketball that left many of the FHCGM schemes behind.

With that stated, I felt and mostly supported moving on from IB.

When PM was hired, I got excited that he had a “bad guy” rep in his old conference. None of that has been on display. He also seemed to instill confidence in offensive players. Unfortunately, the play on the season is maddening. Maybe the talent isn’t great, but there are soooo many terrible non-talent related issues…. WSU fans will rally behind a team that lacks competitive talent: yet, fights and claws their way in each game. This team refuses to earn that kind of support. The coach is completely failing to understand the dynamics of the fanbase and what it takes to gain support. Red meat matters (rip a dude - u need half to transfer anyhow).


I am known for being against moving to the AAC because it was strategically problematic, but my most negative outlook didn’t project this trash.

[cjp27]

I hope in two years we are looking back on these comments and laughing as we are making NCAA plans. I wasn't thrilled with the hire but I decided in my own mind to get on board and give him a chance. I'm not seeing much to give me hope at this point. Right or wrong, he will get a pass for this year. It's a legitimate point that it doesn't take 4 years to build a program in today's game, but let's see what he can do with a chance to have a full recruiting cycle. There better be significant improvement next year, at least upper division in the AAC and in the discussion for an NIT bid. That should be the absolute floor for this program any year. If we're 8-11, 0-6 this time next year, then it's going to be clear we got the wrong guy.

[TrackSuitAndTie]

Right or wrong, I feel burned from taking the "wait and see" approach with HCIB, so now I feel like I'm way more pessimistic about everything unfortunately. I'll gladly eat crow if WSU is dancing in two years.

[Stickboy46]

Right or wrong, I feel burned from taking the "wait and see" approach with HCIB, so now I feel like I'm way more pessimistic about everything unfortunately. I'll gladly eat crow if WSU is dancing in two years.

Nobody on here WANTS it to be bad like this. We all want to see the shocks playing in the tourney. If we didn't, we wouldn't be still on this message board, we would have moved on to whatever other bandwagon. I know I would LOVE to be wrong and Mills turn it around in the offseason. I'm just not seeing much to counter my fears that i had since Day one .. in fact this is a bit worse than even my day 1 fears.

[SubGod22]

I'm just not seeing much to counter my fears that i had since Day one .. in fact this is a bit worse than even my day 1 fears.

This is the part that is most surprising to me. I never liked the hire. I hoped I was wrong. I hope he still somehow manages to get things going. But I never expected things to be this bad. I figured we should be a middle of the pack team again, maybe lower mid, and hoped there might be signs of life.

Instead, we're sitting in dead last and the team is on life support, but brain dead.

[asiseeit]

More than a "bit worse" IMO, nevertheless, a respectable post stick. I stand by the need for a coach with teeth. Players get softer every year. I saw where Deon Sanders brought in Marines to help with 6 AM workouts.

[wsushockerdude]

Is there anything about the play on the court that is encouraging?

I'm sick of people, and you're far from the only one, comparing Mills to Turgeon and Marshall when they started. I've said it before and I'll say it again, both of those coaches may have lost early, but you could see what they were trying to build from day one. Those teams fought for every damn thing and while they may not have had the talent to win as many games as we would want, there was never a single question as to the effort being given or the direction the program was moving. Those teams also showed improvement throughout the season. It may or may not have resulted in wins, but you could see progress. You could see light at the end of the tunnel. You could see that the ship was no longer rudderless.

You can't say any of that about this years team and this staff. So while wins and losses may be similar in the struggle, the product on the court is nowhere near the same. The building towards the future is nowhere close to the same. I'd take those early year teams from Turg or 3G over the **** show we have right now. And if they played each other, I'd throw money on those earlier teams over the one we have now.

I was also there for those seasons. Marshall had PJ and Matty B out there, some old blood of the program to help keep that fighting edge. We've got Kenny Pohto. So yeah, I'd take those earlier teams as well. I also remember watching Gal Mekel take 14 seconds to dribble to the top of the key - it wasn't pretty.

I'm comparing PM to Turg and 3G because there's data behind it. Hard data. I'm not trying to cherry-pick moments from over 15 years ago and count on my memory to act as my rationale.

[wsushockerdude]

This is the part that is most surprising to me. I never liked the hire. I hoped I was wrong. I hope he still somehow manages to get things going. But I never expected things to be this bad. I figured we should be a middle of the pack team again, maybe lower mid, and hoped there might be signs of life.

Instead, we're sitting in dead last and the team is on life support, but brain dead.

Being genuine here, I was ecstatic about the hire. You, as you stated, were not pleased. It makes sense that I see things a bit more rosy and you see things a bit more bleak - that's just inherent in the way humans approach things. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. I certainly wasn't waking up this morning trying to start a Paul Mills fan club

[SubGod22]

I was also there for those seasons. Marshall had PJ and Matty B out there, some old blood of the program to help keep that fighting edge. We've got Kenny Pohto. So yeah, I'd take those earlier teams as well. I also remember watching Gal Mekel take 14 seconds to dribble to the top of the key - it wasn't pretty.

I'm comparing PM to Turg and 3G because there's data behind it. Hard data. I'm not trying to cherry-pick moments from over 15 years ago and count on my memory to act as my rationale.

On paper you can make the argument. But it's not a paper game. Turg and 3G pushed their guys. Those guys fought for everything. They half-assed nothing.

Mills seems more likely to coddle his guys. They fight for very little. They half-ass everything.

Just because all three lost early doesn't make them similar. Again, two of them showed progress and a reason for hope. One shows regression and reason to doubt.

They are not the same.

[wsushockerdude]

On paper you can make the argument. But it's not a paper game. Turg and 3G pushed their guys. Those guys fought for everything. They half-assed nothing.

Mills seems more likely to coddle his guys. They fight for very little. They half-ass everything.

Just because all three lost early doesn't make them similar. Again, two of them showed progress and a reason for hope. One shows regression and reason to doubt.

They are not the same.

It's pretty easy to look back with rose-tinted glasses on those early years when you know the heights that each coach ascended to here. Give it time. Maybe even give him a full season.

[BAShocker]

I don’t expect Mills to elaborate much on specific recruiting news. On paper, we only have 1 slot to fill although I think everyone is in agreement that number should and will be much higher.

I guess if he did spill some beans on recruitment, he would lose whatever is left of this JV girls basketball team he assembled for the remainder of the year. So probably the reason why he hasn’t said much if anything.

But man, throw us a bone here coach. At least tell us you’re out recruiting somewhere. Or that you are looking forward to see what is available in the portal.

side note: I was going to look to see who he got out of the portal while at ORU. I know he got that 7’2” guy who comes off the bench at Missouri. Of course, who wouldn’t want to play with Abmas?

[SubGod22]

It has nothing to do with looking back and knowing where things went. I lived through it and I remember believing in them. I remember seeing them do everything I said they did. Those teams were probably less talented over all, but they were better basketball players and harder workers and both coaches were better motivators and got every little bit out of those guys that they could.

So again, it's not just that they're losing under Mills. It's that they are uninspiring. Something those previous losing teams weren't. Those teams would get ovations after a loss because of the way they played and how hard they fought. People kept coming back for more despite the losing of games.

I've always had high expectations for this program. Even when we suffered through the 90s I never felt like we could never compete. I still don't believe that. I still stand by the belief that even in our worst years we should be NIT level teams and the expectation isn't just making it to the NCAA, but winning games when we get there. Things happen and that doesn't always work out, but that's where I believe expectations for this program should be.

There are coaches out there that can do that here. There are players out there that can do that here. Settling for less because of *insert excuse here* is never going to sit well with me. I've loved Shocker basketball since I was at least 5 years old. I grew up being the only kid in class wearing black and yellow Shocker gear to school. Most of those years WSU sucked ass. Things were a little different then as I was a kid and couldn't watch every/most game(s) because they weren't available. I read about games in the paper religiously. When I finally got old enough I found ways to watch or go whenever I could, even if things still weren't great. Despite all of that suckitude for most of my youth, I still always believed what could be with this program. I'm not going to settle for less now.

To add to the differences between Turg, 3G and Mills; nobody was ready to run either of the first two out of town or counting down the days until we could. It wasn't talk about he needs at least 3 or 4 years before we can make judgements. From year one, most of us believed in what they were doing. You seem to think that has zero bearing on anything and I believe that has everything to do with why we are where we are today. Dwindling attendance. The die hardiest of die hards becoming apathetic because there's nothing about the program to give most hope for a future.

I would say that I'm sickened that so many are so willing to defend mediocrity, but we aren't even to the level of mediocrity, which makes it worse.

I may just stay away from this portion of SN for awhile as there's nothing good to be had here other than venting and getting annoyed with those that have glued on their rose colored glasses to view the program.

[Woodrow]

On paper you can make the argument. But it's not a paper game. Turg and 3G pushed their guys. Those guys fought for everything. They half-assed nothing.

Mills seems more likely to coddle his guys. They fight for very little. They half-ass everything.

Just because all three lost early doesn't make them similar. Again, two of them showed progress and a reason for hope. One shows regression and reason to doubt.

They are not the same.

Turgeon always talked about the players not doing what they were coached to do. Remember Durley his freshman year and Marshall complaining all the time about how he was lazy and didn't listen. It's going to take longer than a half season to see how well HCPM can do. There were people ready to pull the plug on HCGM his first couple of seasons too. Thank God the AD didn't listen to them. I'm not happy with what I see, but I'm willing to give him time.

[BOBB]

There were people ready to pull the plug on HCGM his first couple of seasons too. Thank God the AD didn't listen to them. I'm not happy with what I see, but I'm willing to give him time.

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