Vs. Illinois State game thread

[_kai_]

Say what you will, but Toure' pulled our collective arses out of the fire last night when the guys couldn't get ANYTHING the last 15 minutes of the game.

It certainly wasn't a perfect 40 minutes, NO doubt about that, but without Murry we lose.

Yeah, my comments come at an inappropriate time considering like you said, he pull our butts out of the game late last night. Just his body of work as a Senior hasn't really lived up to my hope I had for an increase from last year. He has his highest points per game average of any time at WSU, I just wish there was a significant increase in his shooting percent averages, which you can chalk up to poor shot selection and rushing shots at times.

[shox1989]

Say what you will, but Toure' pulled our collective arses out of the fire last night when the guys couldn't get ANYTHING the last 15 minutes of the game.

It certainly wasn't a perfect 40 minutes, NO doubt about that, but without Murry we lose.

He really came through at the crucial times, a sign of senior leadership.

[ShockerFever]

Say what you will, but Toure' pulled our collective arses out of the fire last night when the guys couldn't get ANYTHING the last 15 minutes of the game.

It certainly wasn't a perfect 40 minutes, NO doubt about that, but without Murry we lose.

Doc, I rarely, RARELY, like .00000001% of the time ever disagree with you. And I really can't say I disagree with you in this post either, but...

I will give Toure absolute 100% credit in hitting those big shots yesterday.. and also hitting BIG free throws. He definitely willed us when we had to have it. No doubt about it. But there were some other glaring miscues that could have made this game COMPLETELY different.

The fumble out of bounds with .8 seconds left was a really BIG mistake. Now, not all of that is on TM, even though he was the one that did fumble it out of bounds. But if Illinois State somehow gets a 3 to drop with that opportunity and we lose in OT, well.. you know how bad that would have been. That opportunity should have never have happened. It isn't all on TM. Ragland was the one inbounding the ball. Now, I'm sure Marshall was the one instructing that the ball HAD to be inbound to Murry. But why? Why with 2.8 seconds left are we even attempting to make a pass into Illinois State's corner, in the middle of a double-team, with arguably one of the worst ball handlers on the team? Why? A flip of the ball to the opposite end of the floor with a player touch ends this basketball game without any drama. That was a bigtime FAIL and we got lucky with it.

The other play was again.. the Murry 3-pointer late. This may have come after he hit a couple of shots, but again, Toure is NOT a viable 3-point option. But inevitably, the play is still made time and time again in close game situations. Is that the best play that we can draw up in crunch time? Winding down the shot clock for a 20% 3-point shooter to bomb away? It almost bit us again. Illinois State rebounded and outleted a quick pass to a wide open Nic Moore at the top of the key for 3. I could almost have bet the farm on him sinking that 3 off the bad miss on our end. We were again VERY fortunate that the shot was missed by Moore.

Those are the types of plays that just perplex the hell out of me. We gave the Redbirds late Christmas presents on multiple occasions that game. Thankfully, they didn't take advantage of them. Murry is really good at driving to the hoop and drawing fouls, and hitting free throws. He is also a pretty a good assist-maker when he wants to be. I feel he would be better utilized in those situations than being a jump shooter. And the percentages show that. We came out lucky this time around but we've been there before. This game should have never been that close or given away like that at the end. It really sucks to end on that kind of note after such an awesome first half that was played. I dunno, maybe the guys just lost focus and intensity by drilling these teams early.

[wufan]

We'll start to see who our Shox really are starting Friday against the Braves. They are playing better and this will be our second meeting with Bradley this year. Other than the game in Peoria, all of the teams have been able to make adjustments at halftime. I'm not sure what "adjustment" they are making, but it is obviously difficult for us to pass the ball to the post and/or drive to the lane and finish in the second half. If teams like Ill St and EU can limit our ability to get the ball inside early in the contest, I'm just not sure how we'll be able to win.

On Murry: I'm glad that he was able to put points up late in the game, and had he not had that silly fumble, then he was POG easy. Since his freshman season, he just hasn't ever quite been able to be "the Man." Often time I complain that TM doesn't pass the ball to Stutz or Hall from the perimeter. In the first half last night I realized that he doesn't do it because he doesn't know how. He made JV level entry pass to Stutz that resulted in a TO.

On Stutz: He defended well, but he continues to allow the athletic back-door play a couple of times a game. I'm okay with that considering how often he has stopped guard penetration this year. I love that he has recently been able to play huge minutes w/o fouling. That's his biggest improvement. Offensively, in recent games, Stutz has caught the ball deep and finished. He didn't do that a lot last night as he did get pushed out away from the basket some...OTOH, he made some fairly athletic plays that allowed him to get to the basket from further out and he got good looks at the basket, just not point blank. He also jumped much better than I had seen him do previously. Those shots are much harder to finish and I think that is why his percentage was down. He was off-balance and in the air putting up 6-footers instead of going straight up on his toes to shoot 2 footers. Props to him on adjusting to the defense, but those are shots Miller and Durley were great at finishing, and ones that Stutz still needs work on.

On Ragland: A huge offensive outburst in the first 12 minutes made for a good game from him. Otherwise, he just wasn't very good.

On Williams: I really like how he's playing right now. Tons of hustle, defending better, and very efficient in the offense. He's not one to fire the quick three like Kyles, Rags, and Murry and I like it!

On Kyles, Smith, and Hall: Very forgettable game. Nothing special out of these three very valuable role players.

On Ill St: Talented group inside and out. They have no seniors and the addition of Brown, Allen, and Moore make this team very dangerous for the next 18 months. Those three guards are athletic talents and I expect them to challenge Creighton for the MVC title next year.

[WuDrWu]

'Fever I won't argue any of your points, because they're all dead on. I think everyone knows I am a big Toure' Murry fan but I not immune to pointing out his shortcomings, and the guarded 3 late in the game off the "iso" isn't what any of us are looking for.....ever.

I think his size and "length" cause him problems in his ball handling too....I really thought he would be stronger with the ball as a senior.

I simply wanted to mention that late in the game, when we had nothing going, anywhere, his 2 scores totally saved us.

[ShockTalk]

Yeah, my comments come at an inappropriate time considering like you said, he pull our butts out of the game late last night. Just his body of work as a Senior hasn't really lived up to my hope I had for an increase from last year. He has his highest points per game average of any time at WSU, I just wish there was a significant increase in his shooting percent averages, which you can chalk up to poor shot selection and rushing shots at times.

When was the last time anyone saw such flat stats by a Shocker from his freshman to senior year?

I think that is a big part of of where the criticism comes from. As you said, Doc, he pulled us out last night for a win. However, he did that as a freshman, too. Most here were probably hoping for at least a little improvement from each year to year, say like he did from his freshman to sophmore year. More importantly, the maturity he showed for a freshman we hoped would turn into a solid, high basketball IQ, steading force by the time he would be a senior. Instead, he still makes a high number of "freshman" mistakes, more than most here probably expected, for a team that is as inconsistent as ever.

Maybe he set the bar too high his freshman and sophmore years. Maybe we expected more than we should have. Nevertheless, he will still hold a solid place in Shocker basketball history and he does still have half a year a games to add to it.

[ShockerFever]

'Fever I won't argue any of your points, because they're all dead on. I think everyone knows I am a big Toure' Murry fan but I not immune to pointing out his shortcomings, and the guarded 3 late in the game off the "iso" isn't what any of us are looking for.....ever.

I think his size and "length" cause him problems in his ball handling too....I really thought he would be stronger with the ball as a senior.

I simply wanted to mention that late in the game, when we had nothing going, anywhere, his 2 scores totally saved us.

I agree with you 100%. I kinda rambled on with my post and went a bit off topic with it. I wasn't intending to make it an essay response to you. I just quoted you for the first part of my point. Just really frustrated in a lot of aspects of our decision-making. Didn't mean to pile on.

We are 13-3 and 4-1. I do need to remind myself sometimes of that. But I don't think anybody likes the trends we have seen lately having big leads being nearly blown. One of these days it's gonna bite us squarely in the....

[ShockerFever]

When was the last time anyone saw such flat stats by a Shocker from his freshman to senior year?

I think that is a big part of of where the criticism comes from. As you said, Doc, he pulled us out last night for a win. However, he did that as a freshman, too. Most here were probably hoping for at least a little improvement from each year to year, say like he did from his freshman to sophmore year. More importantly, the maturity he showed for a freshman we hoped would turn into a solid, high basketball IQ, steading force by the time he would be a senior. Instead, he still makes a high number of "freshman" mistakes, more than most here probably expected, for a team that is as inconsistent as ever.

Maybe he set the bar too high his freshman and sophmore years. Maybe we expected more than we should have. Nevertheless, he will still hold a solid place in Shocker basketball history and he does still have half a year a games to add to it.

You make good points ST. I'm sure Marshall remembers all of the money shots Toure hit his freshman year that helped gain a few extra wins out of nowhere. And maybe that too is why Murry seems to be relied upon so much in "clutch" situations. Maybe, in part, nobody else on the team wants to step up in the clutch. But I just wish we had better options and better ideas to something that worked great 4 years ago, but isn't working the same now. Times change. Players change. Coaching can change too.

By the way, that 3 pt% line is telling.

[pinstripers]

Yeah, it probably is. Reeeeeally good point about the 13-3 & 4-1 thing.

[_kai_]

One of the things about success is that it makes you hypercritical. Sort of like blinders, and I think everyone is guilty of it to some extent.

Also, I think it was a good comment, sorry in a rush and can't look up who said it, Fever or ST, but that one of the biggest problems we have with TM is that there really isn't any advancement of his stats over his career. One could say that statistically he is nearly the same player he was when he came into the program. I wonder how common that trend (of not increasing statistical output) is with 4 year starters in D-1. The hardest part is finding other players to compare him to. And I also think that is very telling about TM that he is a very unique player that has played a very unique role within our program being an immediate contributor from day 1 on campus.

[Aargh]

Yeah, it probably is. Reeeeeally good point about the 13-3 & 4-1 thing.

We're 14-2 and 5-0 if we don't blow a solid second-half lead, so that problem has already bit us once. We're probably 15-1 and 5-0 if we don't blow a solid second-half lead and don't take ill-advised shots in clutch situations.

[vancedave56]

...does it ever get to the point that we over-analyze, become over critical, and examine everything under such a powerful microscope that we fail to enjoy what we have?

[Aargh]

Yeah, it probably is. Reeeeeally good point about the 13-3 & 4-1 thing.

We're 14-2 and 5-0 if we don't blow a solid second-half lead, so that problem has already bit us once. We're probably 15-1 and 5-0 if we don't blow a solid second-half lead and don't take an ill-advised 3-pt shot in a crucial situation.

In the game where we blew the solid second-half lead, the team switched from working nside to passing around the perimeter and shooting 3's early in the shot clock. The tendency to want to shoot 3's is a weakness for this team. But that's a consistency. The same players had the same problem last year, although the % was better last year.

[another shocker]

Yeah, it probably is. Reeeeeally good point about the 13-3 & 4-1 thing.

What was WSU's record last year at this time?

[Capitol Shock II]

Good grief. How many teams are undefeated at this point. Of those teams, what is their strength of schedule? We are in some pretty damn fine company in terms of wins and losses. Would you rather play a great game and a loss to show for it? Or make some mistakes and still come out with a win? I think that fact that we struggled so badly for ten minutes of the second half and still beat a team that was tied for first in the Valley says something about how strong this team is. I am thrilled to be where we are record wise especially with losses to Alabama, Temple and Creighton. Those are all very respectable and we barely lost to Temple and beat the tar out of Creighton for a full half or better.

Pretty damn hard to be perfect in this game unless you play a bunch of weenies at home all the time like KU does.